Entangle needs nerfing...

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

The only problems I've seen with Entangle are when people expect it to act the way it does in CRPGs, where it summons the necessary plants throughout the radius.

Reasonably adjudicated by the rules, it's generally only really killer in heavily overgrown areas. Other than that, it's more an area-denial spell like Wall of X -- smart characters will see the tree branches reaching out and avoid the areas where they can be entangled.

 

[Enkhidu]

I've got to agree that the actual plant life in the area means a great deal - even a good, high rock in the middle of knee high grass would serve to nullify the spell effect on someone standing on it.

That's one of the reasons my druids use the one-two punch of plant growth and entangle.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Addtionally, all movement in the area is at half speed. You can avoid these effects by either a REF save vs the spell or use a full round action to break free of entanglement and move.

No, you cannot avoid the half speed restriction with a REF save. You still only move at half speed even if you make your save. If you break free, you still move at half speed. Unless you get out that round, you'll need to make another reflex save next round.

The RAW states the given terrain changes the effects of the spell. CM's houserule is quite viable. You want to nerf this spell? Then use it as written and put some forethought into the terrain the encounter occurs in. The plants have to be able to reach the characters, and as noted upthread, there is no alteration of the plants.

Just so you realize that the forethought you are contemplating would be specifically to screw the druid. Sure, the terrain needs to be appropriate, so assume that it is. The spell will not be cast in an underground dungeon without plants. I think terrain affects how often the spell will be cast, but once the spell is cast it is not so restrictive. For example, if you let your 1st level group have gate 1/month or 1/year, does that balance the spell? Does the limitation on how often they can cast it really balance the power once cast? Additionally, for everytime you 'nerf' the spell with dead spots (like boulders) you should balance that out with hot spots, like willow trees that do something extra.

Even cause problems for those 'safely' flying over

Just so you know, there really is no safely flying over unless you've specifically said that there are no tall plants or trees. mini-hijack: Hmm...maybe a druid BBEG who has 'created' a strain of floating plants just to use entangle more effectively. Get the most out of the radius in 40ft-radius.

Against higher level parties, the REF save should be made most of the time, and if you are wading through light underbrush already, your movement rate is already halved!

So, now your movement rate would be quartered. Let's see you get out of it now. Oh, and saying that higher level parties can overcome the spell does not make this 1st level spell seem less powerful. Having freedom of movement or rings of FoM does not help for 1st level through 6th level parties.

 

[Enkhidu]

...Additionally, for everytime you 'nerf' the spell with dead spots (like boulders) you should balance that out with hot spots, like willow trees that do something extra...

Willow trees already give something "extra" - the third dimension (or more appropriately, increased reach which can help encompass the third dimension). With entangling trees, suddenly flying isn't as helpful.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have a 5th level Druid. I use this spell every opportunity that has come up -- 3 times to be exact. And it has been useful but not impressive. I would trade it for Sleep in a heartbeat if I could.

The Druid as a class has notably weaker offensive spells than the Cleric or Wizard. The Druid does have quite some pretty efficient area control spells. Dealing with area control seems to make some people uncomfortable -- this is really a trivial problem for any low level spellcaster.

The downsides of being caught in an Entangle are way overblown. The victim is hardly helpless. Either he can rely on ranged attacks, or he is likely strong enough to break out with a full round action.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Updating 3.5 ..

I think the spell text didn't get properly updated to 3.5.
IIRC, all the 'half-speed' things, like difficult terrain, turning into sqaures costing +5' of movement. or somethign like that.
IMHO, the spell would be better phrased with a 40' area spread that is treated as difficult terrain {+5' movement cost} and the plants can entangle characters. That way it codifies how the spell interacts with things like underbrush and stuff.

Oh, and saying that higher level parties can overcome the spell does not make this 1st level spell seem less powerful.

This was in response to the 'its overpowered..see, even useful against a 15th level party!' line futher upthread.

The spell can be nasty, and yes.. limiting the plant life in encounter areas does impact on the druids effectiveness. Just like adventuring in a Halfing built mine affects the Greatsword weilder. Proper DM adjucation allowes for a fair mix of 'sorry, not a good place to use this ability' and 'holy Entanglement batman! This is the perfect place for your abliity!' {with stages in between of course}
My style of running games gives each player a turn in the spotlight, and the players have a large say in which direction the party goes. If they choose to head into the Deserts of Desolation, the druid better know that Entangle will not be optimum. On the other hand, create Water will be extremely valuable.

My next adventure planned is going to be the Druid's turn for a spotlight, heading into a heavy forest and dealing with Druid a themed plotline. Entangle will be highly usefull to them a number of times.. and may even get used against them!

An interesting addition could be increasing the checks DC {Ref and STR} the closer you are to certain large plants with reach, and have failures draw you in one square closer. As such, the 'hot spot' of a willow tree could be a nasty thing to deal with, lashing out and drawing the PC's deeper into its grasp.
Hmm.. something to mull over before the next adventure starts

 

[Coredump]

For example, if you let your 1st level group have gate 1/month or 1/year, does that balance the spell? Does the limitation on how often they can cast it really balance the power once cast?

Yes actually. Now, it isn't 1/month, it is 1/specific circumstances. 1/month you can rely on, and use it anytime anywhere.1/specific circumstances you have to hope those circumstances happen when you need them. That lack of reliablity is what balances it.

Compare a wand that will work 1/day, and a wand that will work 25% of the time. I would much rather have the 1/day variety......

 

[Infiniti2000]

Compare a wand that will work 1/day, and a wand that will work 25% of the time. I would much rather have the 1/day variety......

I totally disagree with this, but perhaps your example is not clear. Let me propose the following two items and tell me which you'd prefer.

A. Rod of healing (casts heal 1/day)
B. Rod of healing (casts heal unlimited times, but 75% failure, no mishaps)

If we took a poll, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, a vast majority (95%) would choose Rod B. Sure, I don't disagree that in that one circumstance where you absolutely need to have a heal spell (this example only of course), the guaranteed heal is useful. But, it in no way compensates for unlimited usage.

Now, I realize I stretched your example a little too far. A 75% failure rate is not the same thing as 'specific circumstance'. The latter is far more restrictive based, quite frankly, upon DM whim. So, it would be more like 'you can't use this rod at all unless you are in a forest'. But, once you are in a forest, it works all the time. In that case, the odds might even out, but I still think more people will choose B, but that's heavily dependent upon the campaign setting and world. You wouldn't choose B for Dark Sun campaigns, for instance.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Your anger towards splatbooks does not help your case on entangle. Btw, it's also a 1st level ranger spell and Plant domain cleric spell.

Wow, it's like your reading my mind...completely incorrectly. Honestly how you translate 'dulled somewhat' into anger is amusing.

Back to the issue at hand, my thanks for reinforcing my point. It is still directly in the primary focus for druids, rangers and the Plant domain. Saying it's 'just' a 1st level spell completly ignores the context of the spell list it's present in. Spells vary in level depending upon the class casting them.

So what? The OP feels it is overpowered, as do many others. I did and houseruled it much like CM and ForceUser and the characters still use it. You even say 'spend forever', so how can you say that and not feel it's slightly overpowered?

Nope. The most potent ability of Entangle is to incorrectly convince people they're helpless. They have a plethora of options but a large number of players just shut down and quit when it happens.

Poor player choices do not equal a poorly designed spell.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I totally disagree with this, but perhaps your example is not clear. Let me propose the following two items and tell me which you'd prefer.

A. Rod of healing (casts heal 1/day)
B. Rod of healing (casts heal unlimited times, but 75% failure, no mishaps)

If we took a poll, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, a vast majority (95%) would choose Rod B. Sure, I don't disagree that in that one circumstance where you absolutely need to have a heal spell (this example only of course), the guaranteed heal is useful. But, it in no way compensates for unlimited usage.

Now, I realize I stretched your example a little too far. A 75% failure rate is not the same thing as 'specific circumstance'. The latter is far more restrictive based, quite frankly, upon DM whim. So, it would be more like 'you can't use this rod at all unless you are in a forest'. But, once you are in a forest, it works all the time. In that case, the odds might even out, but I still think more people will choose B, but that's heavily dependent upon the campaign setting and world. You wouldn't choose B for Dark Sun campaigns, for instance.

Your example is seriously flawed. You can heal outside of combat with effectively no downside in this example. (It takes you 24 seconds instead of 6.)