Entangle needs nerfing...

[ForceUser]

I have a 5th level Druid. I use this spell every opportunity that has come up -- 3 times to be exact. And it has been useful but not impressive. I would trade it for Sleep in a heartbeat if I could.

I have seen entangle shut down multiple hill giants for multiple rounds. Show me another 1st-level spell capable of doing this. Furthermore, I have seen entangle be the key component to a wholesale slaughter of an entire group of PCs. It's a very powerful spell outdoors.

The Druid as a class has notably weaker offensive spells than the Cleric or Wizard.

I don't agree. The druid is a better nuker than the cleric, in my experience.

The downsides of being caught in an Entangle are way overblown. The victim is hardly helpless. Either he can rely on ranged attacks, or he is likely strong enough to break out with a full round action.

Again, I disagree. A DC 20 Strength check as a full-round action is not overblown, it's broken. Even a character with an impressive strength, say 20, is only going to break this 1 in 4 times. That's too potent for a 1st-level spell.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

HR version...

I am looking for input on a HR version over in the {gasp} House Rules Forum

Thanks!

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have seen entangle shut down multiple hill giants for multiple rounds. Show me another 1st-level spell capable of doing this. Furthermore, I have seen entangle be the key component to a wholesale slaughter of an entire group of PCs. It's a very powerful spell outdoors.

Shut down? Last time I checked giants are pretty darn good with those boulders. Not as good as they are in melee, but you can't have everything. Having run through a bit of the G-series updated to 3.0/3.5, we have found that Grease very efficiently confounds the most dangerous giants -- they ain't too intimidating once you take away their two-handed weapon.

If the PCs are low level, then Sleep could easily result in wholesale slaughter, too.

If the PCs are not low level, they should either Web/Fog Cloud/Obscuring Mist or use pull out missile weapons or both. It is atypical for PCs to not have superior ranged combat ability than the opposition. (The fact your party may not be able to count on this suggests something about what scrolls you should have handy...)

I don't agree. The druid is a better nuker than the cleric, in my experience.

So far my experience says the otherwise. I expect things to equalize more at higher levels, but I do not really see that Flame Strike as better than, say, Holy Smite. My 5th level Druid would give his eyeteeth for the Sonic Burst spell...

Again, I disagree. A DC 20 Strength check as a full-round action is not overblown, it's broken. Even a character with an impressive strength, say 20, is only going to break this 1 in 4 times. That's too potent for a 1st-level spell.

As I see it, it is about context. I really could not care less if Entangle looks oddly potent for a 1st level spell. What I ask is whether a character of level X can prepare a spell list whose potency is appropriate compared to other characters of the same level and different class.

The Druid happens to have two pretty good 1st level spells -- Produce Flame and Entangle. If we are talking very low level characters, these are not better than the comparable options for the Cleric and Wizard, e.g. Sleep. If we look at, say, a 5th level Druid I can see my 2nd level and 3rd levels offensive spells suck rocks when compared to the Cleric and Wizard. My 1st level spells look attractive. Good! My overall offense is certainly not notable. The fact that I am getting good mileage out 1st level spells in small portion of my combats is a trivial detail.

The DC 20 check is not unique to Entangle; we see this mechanic used for Web and a few other spells, too. I think it is a lousy mechanic but I do not see this as a problem with Entanble in particular.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

My only real problem with this spell is that it uses a rather high ability score check, and ability score checks don't scale much with level (and not at all for some characters). But, I have general problems with this mechanic in spells/abilities, so maybe its just me.

I would agree with that, but I do not consider that an Entangle issue.

If we nerf Entangle should we nerf Web, too? And how about those Walls? Maybe we should just nerf every spell that does not blow the opponent to smithereens so that no poor player has to be subjected to an interesting tactical problem?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Why on earth is a 1st level spell forcing DC 20 ability score checks? Grease is a DC 10, which is good. Why 20? That seems unreasonably high. IMO entangle would be fine if it were just a DC 10 check. Right now, the best thing to do if entangled is to use ranged attacks out of it, so if you don't have one of those you're in trouble (and don't forget your -4 to hit!).

Don't even try for that crazy strength check. At least as a DC 10 it would mean everyone has a chance to get out of it. As it is, it isn't even worth rolling unless you're a raging half orc barbarian.

Medium barbarians and monks are the only ones with a slightly reasonable chance to get out without having to make two Reflex saves and/or two DC 20 strength/escape artits checks because of their increased speed. With a 40' radius, many characters reduced to 15' won't make it out the first round if they make their Reflex save or their DC 20 strength/escape artist check. So then they have to make another reflex save or ability check.

If we nerf Entangle should we nerf Web, too?

Do you really want me to answer that?

And how about those Walls? Maybe we should just nerf every spell that does not blow the opponent to smithereens so that no poor player has to be subjected to an interesting tactical problem?

I see a big difference between walls and entagle. Slow is fine, too, in my book.

 

[Jhulae]

Why on earth is a 1st level spell forcing DC 20 ability score checks? Grease is a DC 10, which is good. Why 20? That seems unreasonably high. IMO entangle would be fine if it were just a DC 10 check. Right now, the best thing to do if entangled is to use ranged attacks out of it, so if you don't have one of those you're in trouble (and don't forget your -4 to hit!).

Don't even try for that crazy strength check. At least as a DC 10 it would mean everyone has a chance to get out of it. As it is, it isn't even worth rolling unless you're a raging half orc barbarian.

Medium barbarians and monks are the only ones with a slightly reasonable chance to get out without having to make two Reflex saves and/or two DC 20 strength/escape artits checks because of their increased speed. With a 40' radius, many characters reduced to 15' won't make it out the first round if they make their Reflex save or their DC 20 strength/escape artist check. So then they have to make another reflex save or ability check.

It's highly unlikely that more that one or two targets are going to get caught where it's going to take them mutiple moves to get out, unless the group is really that poorly organized.

Also, it needs plants around. No using it inside, no using it in the desert, mountains, other rocky areas, tundra, etc.

Again, it's a Druid spell. Who cares if it's in the cleric plant domain? How many clerics have you seen in your games, honestly now, who have plant domain? It's a ranger spell too. Again, it's nice, but take them out of the forest or grasslands, and it's worthless. Plus, nevermind the monsters that the party will be facing. Most of them can laugh at either the reflex save, the strength check, or the radius.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the claim that Entangle is so good against Hill Giants. They have a ~50% chance of making their save, have a good ranged attack as standard MM creatures of that CR go, have good movement rates so they afford to spaced out in most terrain, and have sufficient movement to leave the AoE if they make the moderately difficult (for them) Str check. Is there supposed to be a problem here?

As for Grease, a negative net Balance skill is not uncommon. A DC 10 Balance check is about the same as a DC 20 Str check to a heavily armored Fighter. Furthermore a combatant who falls prone is very vulnerable to melee attacks: +4 to hit and an AoO if the victim attempts to stand up. Someone in an Entangle may entirely safe from melee.

 

[ThirdWizard]

It's highly unlikely that more that one or two targets are going to get caught where it's going to take them mutiple moves to get out, unless the group is really that poorly organized.

With a 40' radius, if you center it in the middle of three characters all 30 feet away from each other, none of them will be able to get out in one round unless they have a movement of higher than 30 normally. And they have to either succeed the saving throw or make a DC 20 Strength check. Otherwise, they arn't moving at all. A 40' radius is huge.

Also, it needs plants around. No using it inside, no using it in the desert, mountains, other rocky areas, tundra, etc.

Again, it's a Druid spell. Who cares if it's in the cleric plant domain? How many clerics have you seen in your games, honestly now, who have plant domain? It's a ranger spell too. Again, it's nice, but take them out of the forest or grasslands, and it's worthless. Plus, nevermind the monsters that the party will be facing. Most of them can laugh at either the reflex save, the strength check, or the radius.

I don't see that as any kind of balaincing factor for spells. Because druids get it, then it can be more powerful? Nope.

I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the claim that Entangle is so good against Hill Giants. They have a ~50% chance of making their save, have a good ranged attack as standard MM creatures of that CR go, have good movement rates so they afford to spaced out in most terrain, and have sufficient movement to leave the AoE if they make the moderately difficult (for them) Str check. Is there supposed to be a problem here?

I don't see it as overwhelmingly good against a CR 7 creature. I hope it isn't!

I doubt they're carring many boulders, though... maybe two rounds worth? Note that even a Hill Giant, if the effect is centered on him, can't escape in one round. Also note that a Hill Giant doesn't even have a 50/50 chance to make the Strength check. At this level, however, fly with protection from arrows is far more effective.

As for Grease, a negative net Balance skill is not uncommon. A DC 10 Balance check is about the same as a DC 20 Str check to a heavily armored Fighter. Furthermore a combatant who falls prone is very vulnerable to melee attacks: +4 to hit and an AoO if the victim attempts to stand up. Someone in an Entangle may entirely safe from melee.

Grease: Save or fall (prone penalties). If you succeed make a DC 10 balance check or you can't move (another save or miss check by 5 or fall). In either case you still have a standard action remaining. A prone character can crawl out of the area of effect as a full round action (moving 5').

Entangle: Save or be entangled (entangled penalties). If you succeed you can move at half movement to leave the area. If you fail, you must make a DC 20 Str/EE check to move. At the end of the round, using a full round action. If you don't get out, make another save.

They're very similar actually. Both have an immediate save or you suffer penalties. Both have a skill check following a successful save, and a penalty associated with a failed check. Entangle is more powerful because it will come into play less often (which I don't see as a compelling balancing factor).

Both use Reflex saves, so we'll just ignore them.

Considering grease, your average 3rd level Fighter has 12 Dex and probably a -5 penalty to balance probably, so they have to get a 14 or better or he can't move that turn. He can try again with his Standard or use the Standard for something else. Because it is only 10'x10', one success and he's out. Getting up if he falls, he will most likely provoke an AoO from standing. Also while on the ground, he is more vulnerable.

In entangle's case, with a 16 Str, they have a +3 to Str checks and need a 17 or better to move for the duration of the spell. Odds are, he'll have to make another save and maybe another Str check next round even if he was successful. While entangled, the enemy can ignore him and go after weaker party members. Not so bad for him, bad for everyone else.

A wizard caught with grease will have an average of 12 Dex, so on a roll of 9 or higher they'll make the check for grease. If they fall, they probably weren't near combat anyway, so they might just stay laying on the ground to get the bonus to AC against ranged combatants. If someone makes it over to them, they're in trouble, though.

Average 3rd level Wizard has a 10 Str and has to roll a 20 to spend a full round action to move 15 feet and possibly still be in the effect of the spell... This isn't worth it. No caster is going to try to move out. He'll cast spells out of it, each requiring a Concentration check of 15+spell level (as an aside another reason SF(conjuration) is better than Combat Casting), and all his ranged touch attacks suffer a -4 penalty to attack. The concentration checks arn't so bad, but at this level, he might fail a few. Then he waits several minutes after the battle to leave the area of effect.

Entangle seems more powerful to me.

 

[Jhulae]

I'm not saying that druid spells should be more powerful. I'm saying that you'll really only see it in conjunction with druids.

And, again, it's extremely limited in where it will work. There are many places where there isn't enough plant life for the spell to take effect. The DM has complete control over when this spell can be used, honestly.

And, while 40' is a large radius, if the enemy isn't clumped together, it's going to be very hard to center the spell so that all of the foes are more than 30' from it's center. Even with just 3 enemies, if they're 10' apart from each other, 1 of them is 25' from the edge. The second is 30, the last is 35'.

Yes, it may catch a lot of enemies in it, but the more the caster attempts to catch, the more will be able to get out with just one turn.

It's not as 'horribly' unbalanced as you seem to think.

 

[Ovinomancer]

And, again, it's extremely limited in where it will work. There are many places where there isn't enough plant life for the spell to take effect. The DM has complete control over when this spell can be used, honestly.

Quite right! So, lets see, I'm building a new campaign world and to balance the usage of entangle I can only make about 30-50% of the surrounding terrain constist of mainly plant life. The rest should be inhospitable to humanoid life. Wow...not much room there for my rolling grasslands, my elven forests, my wooded hills, my swamps, my jungles, or any croplands to feed inhabitants. Or, maybe I should just limit where my players can adventure. Yeah, that's the ticket! I'll just make all most of my adventures dungeons or in the mountains, or along that rocky stretch to the east! Perfect! Take that pesky 1st level spell! [/sarcasm off]

Sorry, the balance point that entangle isn't useful in some terrain doesn't change the fact that the terrain it IS useful in happens to be the majority in most campaigns. If you don't think the spell is overpowered, then please present better reasons. A fireball is useless on the elemental plane of fire and throughout most of the lower planes. Is that a balancing factor on fireball?