Entering a Web

[Infiniti2000]

Have a nice day.

That won't be possible as we've received very distressing news today about my father-in-law, but I'll try to stay positive. Thanks, though, and you have a nice day as well.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have not ignored it and yes I am saying that because it's the best way to interpret "being subject to."

What part of "when the spell is cast" is not crystal clear? The spell ONLY has a chance of completely entangling the creature when the spell is cast and at no other point in time. Your "house rule" extrapolation of the general rule is not listed as a rule anywhere.

Best? How about the spell says that a save is only required at casting time is the best interpretation? How about the spell says that creatures moving through have to follow set rules as defined by the spell is the best interpretation? The spell and ONLY the spell is the source for what is meant by "being subject to". You have no rules to support your position. No text that indicates that a saving throw is required except when the spell is cast. Zip, zero, nil rules support.

Obviously, your interpretation is far from best since it ignores what is written in the spell.


Look at the wording in other spells. Blade Barrier:

Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

Web does not have a saving throw for whenever passing through statement because Web does not work this way.


Repulsion:

Any creature within or entering the field must attempt a save.

Web does not have this type of wording because Web does not work this way.


"When the spell is cast" means "when the spell is cast". It does not mean "when the spell is cast and when a creature enters".

This is your own spin and nobody else here agrees with you. Even the spell explicitly disagrees with you.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Obviously, your interpretation is far from best since it ignores what is written in the spell.

Actually, yours does (as well).

"When the spell is cast" means "when the spell is cast". It does not mean "when the spell is cast and when a creature enters".

Sure, and when it says "If this save succeeds" it does not mean "If this save succeeds and when a creature enters" and when it says "Once loose" it does not mean "Once loose and when a creature enters".

So, similarly, you have no rules to support your position. No text that indicates that you automatically succeed at a saving throw. Zip, zero, nil rules support.

This is your own spin and nobody else here agrees with you.

Kalshane agrees with both of us. Nail may or may not agree. In any case, this statement is meaningless. The number of participants in the thread do not signify the number supporting one position or the other. I'm just the most vocal from my perspective.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, yours does (as well).
Sure, and when it says "If this save succeeds" it does not mean "If this save succeeds and when a creature enters" and when it says "Once loose" it does not mean "Once loose and when a creature enters".

So, similarly, you have no rules to support your position. No text that indicates that you automatically succeed at a saving throw. Zip, zero, nil rules support.



Kalshane agrees with both of us. Nail may or may not agree. In any case, this statement is meaningless. The number of participants in the thread do not signify the number supporting one position or the other. I'm just the most vocal from my perspective.

If you say so.

Personally, with no rules support, you appear to be arguing just to argue. Just re-read what you just wrote here. No rules there. Just hyperbole.

The bottom line is that the general "subject to the spell" rule is: go read the spell to determine effect.

The spell states: Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save.

This is the rule. If you claim I have no rules to support my position, then you are arguing just to argue. I have not seen a single rules quote from you that explicitly states that saving throws on all area effect spells must be made whenever a creature enters the area.

Not one explicit rule from you for your position. Only an extrapolation of the "subject to spell" rule with no details.

 

[werk]

What part of "when the spell is cast" is not crystal clear?

I'll jump in on that one too.

"Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. "

So, Mr. Just-entered-the-AoE is in a webbed square would need to make a reflex save or a strength check to be 'loose' and able to move within the web at all. When did he do either of those?

I see the argument for requiring a reflex save, and it's possibly more valid than arguing that a newcomer does not need to make one. At least requiring the save is actually in the spell description. It pushes the argument towards: roll the save, or automatically fail the save, or be completely unaffected by the spell effect.

FWIW

 

[Infiniti2000]

I merely repeated your last argument. If mine was hyperbole, so was yours. The purpose of my response was to show that both interpretations have a flaw. I'm certainly not arguing just to argue. Did you drink out of the same water as Caliban? You both are being passive aggressive this afternoon.

Personally, with no rules support...

You keep saying that like it makes it true. Actually, I do have rules support and quoted it earlier. We can both show quotes from the spell description to discredit the opposing view, so no gain there. The only factor tipping the balance is the rule I've provided. I have not seen a rule on your side that supports your position. I have yet to see you or anyone explain how you can ignore the save requirement in the main paragraph as I explained in my response to Warmage-in-Onley. You can't quote the text from web as "your" rule when we both use it as a basis of our interpretation. So, what are your explicit, supporting rules?

I contend (again) that the only valid interpretation if we are to ignore the "being subject to" rule is to merely impose entangled. Your interpretation does not work because it not only ignores that rule, it ignores the requirement for a save in that paragraph and has no other support that I know about.

Not one explicit rule from you for your position.

Exactly the same with your position, isn't it? You claim my rule is not explicit, but I disagree. It's the only explicit rule quoted in this thread (aside from the web description of course which is under debate). Nail, you with me on this, buddy ol' pal?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Thanks, werk. I know I'm not going crazy. At least not yet.

Btw, the option instead of "completely unaffected" would merely be entangled. I could live with that as I've said.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'll jump in on that one too.

"Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. "

So, Mr. Just-entered-the-AoE is in a webbed square would need to make a reflex save or a strength check to be 'loose' and able to move within the web at all. When did he do either of those?

What is your definition of "loose"? Not fully entangled? Wasn't someone who enters not "loose" before he enters?

Obviously, the writer of the spell did not consider the "enter from outside" case when he worded the spell.

Yet, there is no indication that a new save must be made in that case. There is a clear indication that the save is only made at one specific point in time.

No rule versus one rule.

I see the argument for requiring a reflex save, and it's possibly more valid than arguing that a newcomer does not need to make one. At least requiring the save is actually in the spell description. It pushes the argument towards: roll the save, or automatically fail the save, or be completely unaffected by the spell effect.

Except that the spell explicitly qualifies the save as being "when the spell is cast".

If the "when the spell is cast" phrase were not there, then yes, the question of when to make a save would not be clear.

 

[Caliban]

I merely repeated your last argument. If mine was hyperbole, so was yours. The purpose of my response was to show that both interpretations have a flaw. I'm certainly not arguing just to argue. Did you drink out of the same water as Caliban? You both are being passive aggressive this afternoon.

Please leave me out of this.

 

[KarinsDad]

The only factor tipping the balance is the rule I've provided. I have not seen a rule on your side that supports your position. I have yet to see you or anyone explain how you can ignore the save requirement in the main paragraph as I explained in my response to Warmage-in-Onley. You can't quote the text from web as "your" rule when we both use it as a basis of our interpretation. So, what are your explicit, supporting rules?

Here are my two rules. My position follows both of them.

Rule #1:

Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save.

Rule #2:

"Creatures become subject to the spell when they enter the area and are no longer subject to it when they leave."

1) They are subject to the spell when in the area.
2) The spell says only a save required when the spell is cast (i.e. no other time).
3) The spell says movement rules for moving through while within.

Both of these rules support my POV.

Rule #1 and item #2 here does not support yours.

Your "subject to the spell" rule supports both of us. The spell decides.

You ignore the "when the spell is cast" rule. You use the "If this save succeeds" rule to infer a save must exist. The "when the spell is cast" rule trumps that rule. Why? Because if there is no save, then there is no what happens if you save or do not save clause.


This concept that you have a rule when I do not is totally invalid, made up, and ignores the facts. I have two rules, you have one.


If I say to you:

"If you are present for the Lottery Drawing when the numbers are drawn, you can win if your numbers come up."

Your numbers come up. You are not there. You do not win because a requirement was for you to be there when the drawing occurred.

Just like for Web, in order for there to be a save, you must be in the area when the spell was cast.

You cannot just ignore this sentence as if it does not exist. No other sentence in the spell description trjmps this with regard to whether a save is made or not. It IS the sentence on whether to make a save.