Epic Fight turns into Epic Farce

[Bullgrit]

[D&D3.5] Six epic heroes (levels 4-6; an E6 campaign) lined up across a 20' wide corridor, braced for an epic battle to prevent an ancient evil from escaping the crypt dungeon. We hear the baying of hounds and the laughter of a terrible undead creature from down the hall. We're going to hold our line, as we may be the only ones capable of defeating this evil, and we have to stop it before it gets out into the world. This is going to be fantastic!

Two big dogs (shadow mastiffs) reach us first. One gives us his fear howl and we hold (I think maybe one character at the back of the group might have failed his save). The second dog howls . . . and the whole group panics, drops their weapons and shields, and flees.

Five of the six characters failed a DC 13 Will save (three natural 1s). The one who saved had to flee with us, as he was just a 4th-level cohort. What was set up to be an amazing heroic stand turned into a friggin' rout from two friggin' dogs. Our group left at least six magic items on the ground as we ran. Un-be-lievable!

Fortunately, we eventually got ourselves together and put up a good fight (including my enlarged war cleric grappling a mastiff to death with his bare hands!). The party barbarian (fast movement) managed to recover our weapons so we could face the undead creature, and we managed to fight him back into his crypt (though we didn't destroy him, yet).

In the end, it was a very fun and entertaining fight, but we didn't expect the "epic stand" to turn into a Keystone Cops skit.

This scene shows a big problem with powers that can affect everyone within an effectively unlimited range. Even if the save DC is low (like 13 in this case), it can sometimes get everyone. For instance, I've seen a harpy charm all five PCs in a party.

Has anyone else found this to be a problem (probably not often, but even once can completely screw up a campaign -- it's a route to TPK)? Does 4th edition "fix" this? If so, how?

Bullgrit
Total Bullgrit

 

[WizarDru]

[D&D3.5] Six epic heroes (levels 4-6; an E6 campaign)

I'm sorry, I don't really follow this notation. What is an E6 campaign? Do you mean they were 24-26th level?

Has anyone else found this to be a problem (probably not often, but even once can completely screw up a campaign -- it's a route to TPK)? Does 4th edition "fix" this? If so, how?

4th Edition doesn't fix rolling a Natural 1. Well, actually it does, after a fashion. In this case, the creature would roll against your WILL save...but the converse still applies. If he rolls a bunch of 20s against your saves...you're right back where you were. You're not rolling an automatic miss, but he's rolling an automatic hit....statistically the chances of that occurring are the same. And any game the depends on random dice rolls as a mechanic runs the risk of outliers like that.

That said, I'm not sure it's a bug, but a feature. A party that doesn't have gadgets and gimgaws up their sleeves to deal with stuff like that is going to have to face the consequences. In 3E, buffs are paramount, especially at higher levels.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm sorry, I don't really follow this notation. What is an E6 campaign? Do you mean they were 24-26th level?

E6 is a "campaign model" where character cannot reach a level above 6 - this level is already treated as epic. (Advancement doesn't stop, though - you can still learn feats and skills, but you're mostly growing in breath, not depth.)

 

[VanRichten]

[D&D3.5] Five of the six characters failed a DC 13 Will save (three natural 1s).

Last I checked a Natural 1 on a saving throw is not a failure in 3E. It as in 2nd but not in 3E. Now that does apply to attack rolls but the rule of 1 and the rule of 20 only apply to attack rolls in 3E. It is possible that your DM may run based on a harsher set of rules. I gather this is the case.

However in answer to your main question it is entirely possible for the same to occur in 4E as in 3E or any other edition. The reason is you are dealing with random possibility and with the the fates we can never tell just which way they will lean.

 

[ExploderWizard]

E6 is a "campaign model" where character cannot reach a level above 6 - this level is already treated as epic. (Advancement doesn't stop, though - you can still learn feats and skills, but you're mostly growing in breath, not depth.)

Interesting. I have never heard of that. I remember continuing "attack ranks" for max level demihumans in basic D&D but nothing like capped epic levels in general.

 

[Fifth Element]

Last I checked a Natural 1 on a saving throw is not a failure in 3E.

Check again:

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure

You're probably thinking of skill checks.

 

[Dragonbait]

 

[Nifft]

Has anyone else found this to be a problem (probably not often, but even once can completely screw up a campaign -- it's a route to TPK)? Does 4th edition "fix" this? If so, how?

Yep, "forced actions" are harsh in all previous editions. I hated 'em.

4e does away with this sort of thing entirely (I think). Even if you are hit with a Fear effect, it won't dictate your actions. It may penalize certain actions until you make a save to end the condition, but it will not ever force you to drop your weapon and run away.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Here's a link to the E6 idea:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=206323&page=14

As for the problem....

*shrug*

1s are considered a failure. If that sucks, change it. Anytime you use a creature or a spell that has consequences like people being charmed or save-or-die or whatever, yeah you're running a risk of a TPK. That's been the case for 30 years, and quite a few game systems.

I think calling this an "Epic Fight turns into Epic Farse" is a bit misleading. Most people that play D&D aren't going to consider a level 6 character "epic". It's still down in the "most zero" instead of "big damn hero" in terms of the way the overall powers and abilities are set up.

I ran an E8 game for a year. It went fine. You do have to watch out for some of these sorts of things, because often there's not a lot to deal with it.

See, there's a nasty side effect. A lot of the people that like E6/E8 play like it as a way of doing a "low magic" and "gritty" game. So that means that in addition to capping skills, hit points, and all that other stuff, magic is going to be in shorter supply as well.

Monsters in general aren't really geared that way. They expect a certain amount of magic to be present to deal with them. Either in the form of spells, items, or something like that.

At the end of the day though, the GM just has to ask themselves a few simple questions... what happens if everyone fails their saving throw? Is that an outcome I'm fine with? How can I fix it so that failure doesn't equal a TPK.

To be honest, this seems an awful lot more a matter of GMing style than system.

 

[gtJormungand]

Last I checked a Natural 1 on a saving throw is not a failure in 3E. It as in 2nd but not in 3E. Now that does apply to attack rolls but the rule of 1 and the rule of 20 only apply to attack rolls in 3E. It is possible that your DM may run based on a harsher set of rules. I gather this is the case.

The SRD says for saving throws:

Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.