Epic Fight turns into Epic Farce

[wally]

Umm, what? What does that have to do with my point?

Any creature with a save or die gaze attack - medusa, basilisk, bodak, just to name three, works identically to how I outlined my uber-damage monster. The only difference is that the DM is rolling against AC rather than the player rolling a save. That is the sole difference between what I outlined and a bodak or a medusa.

So, if the damage machine is bad, how can the SoD creature not also be bad?

My fix is fairly simple. Note, I'm specifically talking about 3e here.

Take a SoD creature and change it's SoD attack so that it deals damage instead. XdX damage, save for 1/2. If the attack kills you, then you die in a fairly unique way - turn to stone for example.

There, now you don't have SoD, the monsters remain deadly, but now they are in keeping with every other monster in the game. No more bolted on holdover mechanic that clashes with how the game is designed.

I don't really have my book handy, but doesn't it specifically say in one of them or more that all you have to do is to try and avoid the gaze and you don't even have to make the saves? Sure you may be fighting at a bit of a penalty, but if you keep trying to look at something that can kill you with a look, that is really your fault.

Also, there is a bit of a difference as save DCs don't normally go into the 30s, but an attack roll with bonuses can. Unless that creature who can do all that damage has a really low attack roll, to keep it similar to a save DC, then you aren't really keeping it similar.

Most of the players I play with wouldn't care too much if it did that damage if it needed a natural 19 or 20 to hit, not counting whether they could come up with a magic that could negate the attack even with a natural 19 or 20.

-wally

 

[WizarDru]

I don't really have my book handy, but doesn't it specifically say in one of them or more that all you have to do is to try and avoid the gaze and you don't even have to make the saves? Sure you may be fighting at a bit of a penalty, but if you keep trying to look at something that can kill you with a look, that is really your fault.

Luckily, you have the Internet and the SRD to tell you all about Gaze Attacks. The answer is that you can attempt to avert your gaze, giving you basically a 50% chance to avoid having to make the save. Better odds, to be sure, and all you have to do is willingly blind yourself. Of course, that does nothing for the bite of a cockatrice, the Devourer's Trap Essence power, a Krenshar's Scare scream or a Gorgon's breath weapon, to name a few non-gaze-bases SoSo effects.

 

[Vegepygmy]

The answer is that you can attempt to avert your gaze, giving you basically a 50% chance to avoid having to make the save. Better odds, to be sure, and all you have to do is willingly blind yourself.

No, no, no...if you willingly blind yourself, you have a 100% chance of avoiding the gaze attack. Averting your gaze merely grants the gazer concealment from you, which is a paltry 20% miss chance.

 

[Branduil]

Just for clairification, was it all within one combat? Was that combat the first for the day when everyone had all their powers? Was it within a power level close or equivalent to the party that had deaths?

Doesn't mean much without more info. At least to me.

-wally

It was the third combat for the day, but most of us still had our daily powers. The power level was several levels higher, but that's how it is in the module... so you can't say Wizards doesn't intend for death to be in the game.

 

[WizarDru]

No, no, no...if you willingly blind yourself, you have a 100% chance of avoiding the gaze attack. Averting your gaze merely grants the gazer concealment from you, which is a paltry 20% miss chance.

Whoops! You're right, I misread that section because I was rushing.

 

[Lanefan]

In a way, the save or die approach is also making you into someone that _might_ be a fantasy hero - but maybe you're not, and you're actually just a side-kick that dies to make a story point - this is a dire situation for our real hero (the one that made his save.)

Well, since I am living out my power fantasies when playing D&D, I am already assuming I am a protagonist, not the side-kick. Save or Die tells me this assumption is wrong.

Take a wider view.

The protagonist of the story is the party as a whole rather than any one character within it.

TPKs end stories. Deaths - be they temporary or permanent - of individual characters do not.

Lanefan

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

At the end of the day, 99% of people aren't going to change their mind.

Some people think death (and therefore save or die effects) is a Good Thing. For whatever reason.

And some people think they suck.

Neither side is going to convince the other about the rightness of their belief. All you're doing is preaching to A) the choir and B) people that _know_ you're wrong.

 

[Ginnel]

At the end of the day, 99% of people aren't going to change their mind.

Some people think death (and therefore save or die effects) is a Good Thing. For whatever reason.

And some people think they suck.

Neither side is going to convince the other about the rightness of their belief. All you're doing is preaching to A) the choir and B) people that _know_ you're wrong.

But its an interesting fun debate nonetheless ; )

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Take a wider view.

The protagonist of the story is the party as a whole rather than any one character within it.

TPKs end stories. Deaths - be they temporary or permanent - of individual characters do not.

Lanefan

For some reason, I am unable to take the "wider view" if it is me sitting at the table and having to stop rolling dice and making character decisions after I failed my save.

Therefore, I have decided to adopt a narrow, egoistical view and see my character as a protagonist of the story, and therefore prefer to have a strong hand in the fate of my character, stronger than save or die gives me.