Fifth Element
Legend
I'd say it has a lot to do with the system, given the abundance of save-or-suck effects in 3.X.
Epic Fight turns into Epic Farce
- Thread starter Bullgrit
- Start date
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
I don't necessarily think it's broken, so I don't see a need for 4e to 'fixi' it.
That aside, I always found our failures more fun than the successes. It'll be something you remember fondly over the years. And in the end no harm was done, so what's the big deal? Maybe your characters all had bad experiences with dogs when they were kids
I much prefer the Grim Tales fight-or-flight rules to a straight up Will save, though. 5/6ths of the party running because they failed a die roll is amusing; 5/6ths of the party running because 5/6ths of the players decided to run rather than risk going insane and leaving one poor sucker to deal with it is just priceless.
That aside, I always found our failures more fun than the successes. It'll be something you remember fondly over the years. And in the end no harm was done, so what's the big deal? Maybe your characters all had bad experiences with dogs when they were kids
I much prefer the Grim Tales fight-or-flight rules to a straight up Will save, though. 5/6ths of the party running because they failed a die roll is amusing; 5/6ths of the party running because 5/6ths of the players decided to run rather than risk going insane and leaving one poor sucker to deal with it is just priceless.
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DwarvenDog
Explorer
rolling three out of 5 1's and having your non-afraid cohort bumble along after you ("uh, guys... those were just dogs...") is a memorable encounter, the story of which will last many game sessions to come.
Have fun with what happens, not with what you expect to have happen. Otherwise, why bother rolling dice?
Have fun with what happens, not with what you expect to have happen. Otherwise, why bother rolling dice?
Looking at Dragons and Dracolich fightful presence effects in 4e, there is no run away, fail and you are stunned for a round an under negative modifier afterwards. So in 4e you would have held the like but given the bad guys a free go.
Fifth Element
Legend
The problem that 4E set out to fix was not when everyone fails a save like this, but when some do and some don't.
Say only half the party fails the save. Those who fail run away; those who made it stay and fight. So the players whose characters have run away don't get to participate in the encounter, while the others do. That's the sort of thing that 4E was designed to largely avoid. They didn't want some players sitting around with nothing to do while the others save the day.
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
I don't think that's a problem. The members that stay are free to retreat with their comrades. If the encounter was enough of a cakewalk that half the party could handle it easily, it's not (a) going to take that long, and (b) probably isn't going to be that interesting a fight. And they're only panicked for 2d4 rounds, so it's not like you're going to have to sit around waiting for them while they run all the way back to town.
It seems like 4E is better suited to avoid this type of thing happening.
However, just because a DC 13 is "low" doesn't make it easy. I don't know how saving throws progress in E6 games, but 6th level characters in regular 3.5 have an excellent chance of failing a DC 13 saving throw.
6th level Will save bonus high= +5, low = +2
Obviously a 6th level paladin is immune, and a cleric has a high chance of saving (+5 + 4 Wis/item = +9. Must roll 4 or better, 15% chance to fail). However everyone else is in bad shape.
A wizard with a Wis 10 and +1 resistance item has to roll a 7 to save. 1-6 fail = 30% chance. That's good, but failure should not be a surprise.
A fighter, rogue, or ranger with a +1 resistance item and Wis 10 has to roll a 10 to save. 1-9 fail = 45% chance. That's a very high chance of failure, esp. for "save-or-die" effects like fear. As a DM I would make a plan in case all of them failed.
Convert the DC to percentages. You'd be surprised how hard a lot of those "low" DCs really are.
However, just because a DC 13 is "low" doesn't make it easy. I don't know how saving throws progress in E6 games, but 6th level characters in regular 3.5 have an excellent chance of failing a DC 13 saving throw.
6th level Will save bonus high= +5, low = +2
Obviously a 6th level paladin is immune, and a cleric has a high chance of saving (+5 + 4 Wis/item = +9. Must roll 4 or better, 15% chance to fail). However everyone else is in bad shape.
A wizard with a Wis 10 and +1 resistance item has to roll a 7 to save. 1-6 fail = 30% chance. That's good, but failure should not be a surprise.
A fighter, rogue, or ranger with a +1 resistance item and Wis 10 has to roll a 10 to save. 1-9 fail = 45% chance. That's a very high chance of failure, esp. for "save-or-die" effects like fear. As a DM I would make a plan in case all of them failed.
Convert the DC to percentages. You'd be surprised how hard a lot of those "low" DCs really are.
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Gothmog
First Post
Actually, this WON'T happen in 4e. Looking at dragons and dracoliches (the two creatures with the most potent fear abilities), if they hit with their Frightful Presence ability, you are stunned and lose all actions until the dragon's next turn, and take a -2 to all rolls (save ends). Forced fleeing isn't part of 4e when you're overcome by fear, although specific powers could cause a push that would reflect fleeing. Although in many cases with the 4e critters, it would be better to flee and not suffer a round of being helpless.
Foundry of Decay
First Post
Actually, I have to admit that encounter sounds like a riot! Nothing more epic than suddenly turning the tables on your enemy when things are looking most grim.
However, to answer your question if 4e 'fixes' this sort of thing, it sort of does but only takes a different approach to 'fear' effects.
The DM would have to have rolled over all of your Will defenses, which is entirely possible.
The party wouldn't have scattered off down the hallway if he had successfully made a fear attack though. Fear is handled differently and I believe the effect causes you to become 'dazed' or somesuch thing (I didn't look this up, so don't quote me on it). I believe when feared you grant combat advantage to everything around you, and you can only make a standard action or a move action. You definitely don't drop your weapons (!??) and run.
However, to answer your question if 4e 'fixes' this sort of thing, it sort of does but only takes a different approach to 'fear' effects.
The DM would have to have rolled over all of your Will defenses, which is entirely possible.
The party wouldn't have scattered off down the hallway if he had successfully made a fear attack though. Fear is handled differently and I believe the effect causes you to become 'dazed' or somesuch thing (I didn't look this up, so don't quote me on it). I believe when feared you grant combat advantage to everything around you, and you can only make a standard action or a move action. You definitely don't drop your weapons (!??) and run.
Fifth Element
Legend
If at least one member of the party fails the save, you all have to act as if you did too. Not much of a solution.
Who said it's a cakewalk? Maybe the fact that half your party ran away means that a manageable encounter turns into a TPK. But if you run away every time someone fails the save, you'll never be able to take on the encounter, because all it takes is one bad roll from one party member.
2d4, average = 5 rounds, which I'm told is the average length on an encounter in 3E. So you will generally miss the encounter completely.
