Epic Level Adventuring?

[Zog]

I'm curious, but dubious

slightly dubious.

There are two things i have problems with, both related to epic level monsters
First, a character would have been designed from 1st level to be able to deal with these things. Your average character, non-min-maxed, who actually survives to reach Epic level, with a random assortment of treasure and magic items, picked up over their lifetime, is not going to last long. The save DCs, AC and to hit bonuses required to deal with these baddies are absurd! It is bad enough looking at Dragons - the epic stuff is really out there. The assumption is that every 20+character has a minimum of +20-30 to all of their saves, a +30 to hit and an AC above 50. And to do that, you need a standard checklist of gear. Both as a DM and a player, I don't want all of my PCs and characters to have the same fundamental items.

Second: Due to the overwhelming power of these things, one lucky or unlucky blow or missed saving throw will result in Instant Death for a PC, or the entire party. And I just don't find 'roll or die' situations interesting or fun. Heck, there are enough situations and spells at merely high levels (wierd, finger of death, slay living) that can derail a game. As a player, the last thing I want is for my PC to die at the start of a fight - and as DM, the last thing I want is a few Players sitting there with nothing to do because their characters failed a save and died (or where reduced to permenant gibbering idiots or Dust or had their souls trapped, etc), thus making increasingly likely that the remaining PCs will be unable to deal and be wiped out. And while you can always fudge things to allow them to escape - it really cheapens things for the players (having been there as a player!).
Granted, there are a lot of steps you can take with high powered divination and protective spells to prevent Save or Die situations - but when facing Massive Behemoth of Doom and Destruction, said Behemoth with its +40 strength mod and x3 crit with Power attack (because its Bab is 30, without the str mod) scores a single crit and deals 200+ damage, it will mess up the fighters, and kill everyone else. Sure, the cleric has true res - um, if your party has a cleric. And if the one who just bit it wasn't the cleric....

All of this long-winded bit boils down to - at such high power levels, it makes it VERY hard, perhaps too hard, for the GM to balance encounter/challenges. The smallest amount of good or bad luck for the party and they triump with ease, or are oblitered entirely.

So, I remain curious, but dubious.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'm not buying something that for one should have been in the core rules. Since I also don't want my game to resemble Dragonball Z or some anime series I don't think I will have any use for it at all.

 

[RangerWickett]

Re: I'm curious, but dubious

slightly dubious.

There are two things i have problems with, both related to epic level monsters.

First, a character would have been designed from 1st level to be able to deal with these things. Your average character, non-min-maxed, who actually survives to reach Epic level, with a random assortment of treasure and magic items, picked up over their lifetime, is not going to last long. The save DCs, AC and to hit bonuses required to deal with these baddies are absurd! It is bad enough looking at Dragons - the epic stuff is really out there. The assumption is that every 20+character has a minimum of +20-30 to all of their saves, a +30 to hit and an AC above 50. And to do that, you need a standard checklist of gear. Both as a DM and a player, I don't want all of my PCs and characters to have the same fundamental items.

Well, I have one option you can use there. If you download issue 6 of Asgard magazine, and look in the teaser article for D20 Supers, you'll see a set of rules for giving characters innate powers instead of magic items.

In D20 supers, the Hero class grants you Hero Points (HrPs), with which you can acquire super powers. Similarly, the rules presented in that article make it possible for you to grant characters Hero Points if they don't have as much magical gear as the DMG expects. You don't have to call the abilities "super powers," but in a setting where high-level spellcasters can rain down massive destruction, it's not too much of a stretch to say that a 15th or 20th level character has developed some powers beyond normal ranges.

For example, the DMG assumes a 20th level PC would have 760,000 gp. Now, we'll say you gave the party fighter 100k in a powerful magic sword, and another 250k in various other items that make him distinct. However, you didn't give out the other 410,000 gp, so the character could be considered underpowered. Looking at the chart in the teaser article, you see that 410,000 gp is a fair exchange with 50 Hero Points. If you're the DM, and you don't feel like handing out an arbitrary amount of magic items, d20 supers gives you the option to hand out hero points instead.

50 Hero Points is enough to get quite powerful abilities. Since we want to make sure the PC can survive against epic level foes, we'll be focusing on upping saving throws and AC. The PC fighter could spend 10 Hero Points on "Heightened Fortitude," and 5 Hero Points each on "Heightened Reflexes" and "Heightened Will." He could also take 10 Hero Points of "Heightened Defense (luck)," and just to appear all the more mighty, we'll give him 20 Hero Points worth of "Super Strength."

This grants him +18 to Fortitude saves, +8 to Reflex and Will saves, and a +5 luck bonus to AC. The super strength acts like normal strength, except without the bonus to attacks, so he gains a +19 bonus to damage and strength-based checks, plus an effective +38 strength for the purposes of lifting. Sure, he might be better of getting a bag full of healing potions, a bunch of periapts, magic cloaks, rings, +3 daggers, and amulets of natural armor, but it's far more impressive to have innate super powers.

Hopefully you won't shy away from super powers, especially not if you're willing to play epic level characters. I use this same gear for HrP exchange system in my game, and though no one has more than 5 Hero Points right now, they appreciate these powers much more than they would magic items. I hope you will to.

 

[drdevoid]

Adventure versus Encounter

The more interesting propositions for Epic levels characters remains the same as low levelers- attack what they don't have. What are the characters least prepared for. We've all played or GMed in games where water is a far worse foe than a dragon. Or simple negotiations are the bane of characters. So these guys are legendary now? That doesn't mean they can do everything, except that's what commoners and kings alike will expect from them.

So let their reputation (or arrogance) get ahead of them. You've got a player with a total of 27 in Escape Artist but is a braggart about it. Try getting out of a Houdini-esque contraption (designed with him in mind) that requires a series of ability and skill checks with varying DCs. And for the hack and slasher, remind them- there are situations (say gangs of revolting commoners) where they have to run. Speed sword or not they'll be overrun or trampled quickly.

And here's a final thought, make Dungeon crawls for Indiana Jones types. Just see how clever your guys are willing to be. Disarming an ingenous trap can be as big and rewarding an encounter as you make it.

 

[toberane]

We have a group that have played together for a couple of years, and a few of their have been playing together for closer to ten years. They are approaching twentieth level (In fact, Mathias, our leige lord, just hit twentieth last Saturday.) The rest of us vary between tenth and fifteenth level or so, but the way our current adventure is going (Bastion of unborn souls, and we're fighting Cambion demon/devil halfbreeds and super-mega-ancient red dragons) we're going to reach twentieth also before too long.

I'm not as interested in "munchkining out" the characters we have as I am in continuing to play the storylines we have set in motion, many of which are political, but as our characters have grown in strength, so have our opponents, quite naturally. The epic level handbook appears tio not only give rules for stronger characters, but it will also give guidelines for more difficult monsters, traps, and puzzles that will keep a party of 20+ level adventurers interested.

If you are concerned that it will be boring playing characters of that high a level, then your DM needs to put a little more thought and research into how to create adventures at that level. Believe me, higher level adventures can be very fun if they are designed correctly. Whenever I hear about players powergaming and being munchkins, I immediately look at what the DM is giving them and what he/she is letting the players get away with.

In short (I know, too late) I haven't looked forward to a book this much since the original core books were released two years ago. I will buy my copy as soon as it is available.

 

[Bladesinger Boy]

Role-playing

Some see high level (20+ lvl) campaigns as a numbers game. In terms of combat, yes, that's basically all combat it. But a true character and true plotlines are more than just bashing. Much more. A true character has enough depth to drown an army. If you think D&D is bashfest after bashfest, then you're not playing with the right people (or, your DM's a plain old bastard).

Without role-playing (you know, the "R" in "RPG"), characters are simply a one-dimensional set of stats with items. It's no wonder half you guys never get into the double digits in level; you play hack-n-slash campaigns that aren't fun PCs and you stop playing. Or, you're dead by that level because the DM thinks "huh, they won that fight; let's try something with more strength, attacks, AC, and hit points" after every single fight.

Role-playing and character developement is the spice of D&D. Without it, sooner or later, you won't want to play anymore. PCs and especially DMs, please remember to add spice to your games.

 

[Codragon]

Re: Role-playing

Without role-playing (you know, the "R" in "RPG"), characters are simply a one-dimensional set of stats with items. It's no wonder half you guys never get into the double digits in level; you play hack-n-slash campaigns that aren't fun PCs and you stop playing. Or, you're dead by that level because the DM thinks "huh, they won that fight; let's try something with more strength, attacks, AC, and hit points" after every single fight.

No offense BB, but that's a pretty blanket statement, and comes across as elitist to me.

Some of us aren't looking forward to the ELH as much as others. It opens up a whole new can of worms to say our campaigns "aren't fun" because they are "hack-n-slash".

 

[toberane]

Re: Role-playing

Without role-playing (you know, the "R" in "RPG"), characters are simply a one-dimensional set of stats with items. It's no wonder half you guys never get into the double digits in level; you play hack-n-slash campaigns that aren't fun PCs and you stop playing. Or, you're dead by that level because the DM thinks "huh, they won that fight; let's try something with more strength, attacks, AC, and hit points" after every single fight.

Thisn could be seen the other way. The characters that get to high levels only do so because they spend all their time worrying about leveling and getting more XPs (Knights of the Dinner Table, anyone?) whereas the real roleplayers spend more time attending royal balls and getting embroiled in local politics and progress more slowly because they are less worried about gaining levels and more worried about developing good, rounded characters.

I don't think this is true all the time any more than I think your scenario is true all the time. But let's just face it: regardless of playing style, seriousness, or creativity, some people will prefer lower level campaigns and some will prefer higher levels. It doesn't matter why, and there is no point being insulting about it (If your post wasn't insulting, it was dangerously skirting around the edges of it).

Don't get me wrong. I'm all a-titter with excitement about the ELH. I can't wait to get my hands on it. But I consider those people who don't have an urge to play high-level campaigns lucky. After all, instead of buying the Epic Level Handbook, they can go blow their money on Neverwinter Nights!

 

[NemesisPress]

"Due to the overwhelming power of these things, one lucky or unlucky blow or missed saving throw will result in Instant Death for a PC, or the entire party."

"Some see high level (20+ lvl) campaigns as a numbers game. In terms of combat, yes, that's basically all combat it. But a true character and true plotlines are more than just bashing."

I run games with minimal combat. However, combat is still the fundamental mechanism that the rules are designed to portray. And, unfortunately, I agree with the first quote. D20 has enought problems with luck (and bad luck) at lower levels. I think that to do Epic-level adventures right would require a completely different set of rules.

 

[LostSoul]

I just don't feel as though I can relate to the kinds of problems these characters would have. When you've got a Wisdom of 30... well... what does that even mean?

I just can't relate to it all. But that's just me.