[EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK] I'm scared

[Arcane Runes Press]

It is basically the 3 corebooks on steroids.It is a rulebook and it is unfair to compare it to Books like Rokugan or OA since they are primarily setting books that talk about people,places and cultures and all the epic level handbook talks about is high level gaming.

I didn't compare it to Rokugan, as yes, that is a setting book. OA and Swashbuckling Adventures, however, are rulebooks; yes, they are genre specific books, but they have minimal setting material, instead presenting new classes, PrCs, items, monsters, feats, skills and spells that augment/modify/build upon the existing core books.

In that way, they have strong similarities to the ELH, which builds upon the existing core with new PrCs, spells, items, beasties, skill mods and feats. The stuff in the ELH builds, for better or worse, a beast of a different color from a normal campaign; the abilities in the ELH require the DM and players do undergo a fundamental rethinking of what is, and what is not, a suitably challenging adventure. In other words, using the ELH creates an epic/high level genre all its own, as different from low level stuff as Batman is different from Sherlock Holmes.

For me, in order for a book to convince me to make that plateau jump, it has to have that compelling something, that intangible sparkle that hits me again and again between the eyes with the idea brick, that caresses my creative fancy and pops the lock on my inner "must play" monster's cage.

It isn't a matter of distaste for high level stuff, it's just that the high level stuff they gave me leaves me cold.

The initial cool factor is there, ala "WOW! Swim up a waterfall? Vorpal Punch! DC 635! Mithril Golems! DR 60/6? WHOAH!" But that's just the numbers rush, the hard candy shell on the M&M that tastes good but doesn't stick around for long.

So for me, the boat didn't float. I am glad, though, that so many seem to like it and I, too, hope that the mechanics make it to the SRD, so that other companies can run with it and maybe make it more compelling (to me).

Patrick Y.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I am disappointed with this book. It is just not very creative. It is pretty much a comprehensive means to allow your PC's to become the god of numbers.

Remember, the following is all my opinion.

Things I definitely don't like about this book:
1. Epic Prestige Classes: They all sucked. I didn't like one. They all seem more like Sci Fi classes than Fantasy.

2. Epic Class Progression: Didn't care for it. I thought the way they were going to do it originally was far more creative and interesting. The way they have it now is pure number extrapolation and very lacking in creativity and inspiration.

3. Certain Epic Feats: I am mixed on many of these. Some are very nice like the epic druid feats for making their wild shape better and some of the epic spell casting feats such as multispell or automatic quicken.

But I was like WTH for feats like Vorpal Strike. A monk cutting people's heads off with his hands. Friggin Stupid.

Improved Whirlwind Attack has to be a simple lack of editing. As far as I know, a PC cannnot threaten a square more than 5 feet away from without a reach weapon or ranged attack. If using a reach weapon, then a PC doesn't threaten squares close to him or her. Improved Whirlwind attack is not improved. It's just whirlwind attack.

Improved Heighten Spell was unnecessary. I am not going to use it.

I know there are more feats I thought were just plain useless, but those are the ones that stuck out in my head.

4. Epic Organizations: No place for these in my world. Just plain stupid to me.


Things I liked:
1. Certain Epic Feats: Druid wild shape increases are great. Epic Leadership feats are pretty cool. You can finally have an army and be a king or queen if you so desire. Many of the epic spell casting feats were nice such as multispell, improved spellcasting capacity, and automatic silent, quicken, or still spells.

2. Monsters: The epic monsters were pretty cool. I didn't see any I didn't like.

3. Art Work: The art work is indeed very good.

I haven't read enough about epic spells or magic items to have an opinion.

Overall the book is disappointing. Far too numbers oriented and lacking in creativity. I definitely would have preferred their original method of leveling up epic characters.

I guess I will see how it plays. That will be the most important factor in this books usefulness.


On a side note, the Silver Marches is a nice book. Very nicely done. Alot of good information for running that area. Forgotten Realms team proves once again they are the best design team at Wizards of the Coast. Greenwood is still the man.

 

[V-2]

Just out of curiousity, why is it worth noting?

To clarify that it's not an original idea of the designers?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Question for Psion

Hi Psion mate!

I am going to buy this book anyway (though I probably won't be able to pick it up for a few weeks), but I was wondering when we can expect a review from you? I always like reading your reviews - very thorough and insightful.

 

[WintermuteBlu]

ELH--Perspective, Please!

Let us place this in perspective, please. I spent pretty much all of last nite reading the ELH and I came away with the impression it was pretty much as I expected it to be before I bought it: a natural progression on what comes past level 20.

Yes, there are enormous bonuses that may sound rediculous but they are constructed in a logical manner. Yes many of the Epic Level Classes and Prestige Classes seem, well, nonspecific at times...but what, actually, did you expect for them to come up with? They actually did what they set out to do: without completely demolishing the rules they've meticulously worked out to keep 3e as unlike the Bad Old Days of latter-year 2e (just say '2e Psionics' and that should be enough to make any psionic-loving DM shudder) they've created a logical progression system for taking it to the next level.

Soulless? Hardly! No more so than the DMG or the PH. It is a rule-book, not a setting book. That we got the Demiplane of Union is an extra benny--one I am grateful for because it shows us an example of how an Epic-Level setting could be configured.

For those of you looking for an Uber-Setting (aka Forgotten Realms on 'roids) you'll probably be disappointed. Aside from a few FR iconics given the Epic treatment, that's it. The ELH is generic. It's supposed to be. As one said previously, it's goal was to give the Epic-Level treatment to the DMG, PH, MM and PsiH all at once. That they could do it at all in what amounts to a huge tome for $40 and still leave it coherent is a tribute to their talents. Sure, it could've been 500 pages or so, throwing in more monsters, more take on Epic-Level Core Classes and, god knows, I wanted to see more and more Psionics (though what I got was fine, thank's to Bruce Cordell). But think of the costs it would engender for them to both make it and us to buy it.

Think of this--as I do--as Core Rulebook IV. Generic, suitable only for advanced play and involving lots and lots of player-dm negotiations and interactions.

If you came into this exercise with anything else in mind, you might be missing the whole point of it entirely.

 

[Psion]

Re: ELH--Perspective, Please!

Soulless?

Somewhat

Hardly! No more so than the DMG or the PH.

Precisely. Do you not remember the infamous Wick rant? His immediate claim was that the core rulebooks were 900 pages of soulless rules.

Essentially, yeah. But if you are a regular member of this board, you probably understand what I do: in D&D, it is very often the DM vice the designer who breathes life into a game, we don't need a designer holding our hand to do it. You don't beleive me, drop by the story hour forum and just look at some of the fantasastic vistas that many DMs have created without a designer telling us what stories we want to tell.

But in a way, I think we feel the absence of soul here more. Why? In part because even us veteran DMs aren't used to it. This is pretty much virgin territory, at least for those who aren't genuinely power gaming in the teenage powerplay vein. In 2e, forays into double digits were rare because once you were 13th level or so, balors and great wyrm dragons could be grappled with. Few campaigns survived much longer than that for me, or for that matter, any group I knew of. I never had a PC who could cast a 7th level spell in a game that wasn't a teenage munchkin-fest. And even then, it was pretty rare.

But 3e comes along, and it's a bit more balanced. My players are 16th level. I have a PC sorcerer in my game who not only can cast 7th level spells, but can now cast 8th. Despite this, a trio of Gelugons is more than a sufficient challenge for 16th level characters, no need pit fiend and balors. Great Wyrm dragons? Fuggitaboudit!

Now consider this, and we take the plunge into 21st level characters, and where 9th level spells can be cast with relative impunity, that nice new security blanket that let us open up the throttles a little is gone. It is all very dizzying. And scary.

Especially because of that "M" word. You know that term is going to follow this book wherever it goes. People who couldn't resist making a "smackdown" with the old feats, prestige classes, et al., will have a field day with this book. There is lots to be scared of here. We are in the realm of characters with diviniation and trasportation abilities that make the game totally alien to anything that came before. Running a cohesive, substantial, challenging game in this environment will be hard. Making "smack-down" optimized characters will be easy.

This book needs a lot of soul to help it overcome that. And to be fair, it has some. Look at the monsters. Look at the 100 epic adventures.

But it has some not so good takes, I think. In many places, it just looks like "D&D turned up to 11" -- and it appears that it was intentional! Take a look at the new demographics rules. Take a look at some of the organizations and prestige classes, that throw out high level characters in a rather pedestrian manner, I thought. I don't want a game that is just about power inflation, but seeing god-blooded "celebrities" that have 15th level bard groupies just strikes me as wrong and really not in the epic spirit. I don't care what the prevailing level of the game is; 15th level characters should be nobodies patsies.

Anyways, I think the ELH is really ambitious in one sense: it tries to eliminate the idea of a level cap. It tries to blow the field wide open. It's hard not to be scared of the power abuse potential.

I think the trick to realizing the potential of the ELH is going to be to remember what Dr. Malcom said: don't think so much about what we could do, think about what we should do.

So what SHOULD we do with it? As the quoted thread says, use it like the PH and DMG. In my campaign, I had some very high level characters that never got translated over to 3e becasue of the lack of high level rules. These characters would be in the 21-40 level range (30 was the cap in my old game, but the new multiclass rules push this out somewhat...). I don't really intend to have my players go much higher than 25th level or so... it's not really needed for what I have in mind for my game. However, the ELH will be instrumental in allowing me to create challenges that are always just beyond the PC's reach to keep the pressure on them.

For me, that is the real advantage of the ELH, and in particular, the "no limits" thing: no matter how nasty the PCs are, there will always be someone out there who can ruin their day. That is the most important benefit of the ELH, I think.

(Well there I blew about half of what I was thinking about throwing in my review...)

 

[Kai Lord]

To clarify that it's not an original idea of the designers?

As opposed to dragons, elves, goblins, ogres, giants, demons, devils, unicorns, trolls, orcs, halflings, gnomes, titans, zombies, skeletons, vampires, werewolves, ghosts, pixies, mermaids, gargoyles, pegasi, griffons, minotaurs, genies, and centaurs?

 

[NemesisPress]

I'm only going by the excerpts I've seen and second-hand accounts, but it seems that the disappointment evident in many purchasers is not that the book does't define a setting for you (most dms want to do that themselves), but that there is no real synergy among the various classes, feats, methods, spells, etc. that are in the handbook.

Now it's true that the same is true for the regular handbooks, but as mentioned above, the real question here isn't "how do we make a character of epic proportions?" - but "how do you campaign with them?"

If epic-level characters are only fifth-level characters on steroids, fighting the same (but bigger) monsters, evil npcs, and organizations, then I think the point has been missed. What we really need are classes, powers, feats, spells, and adversaries that facilitate creating truly epic storylines.

Ironically, of course, you can create such epic stories even with low-level characters with a little forethought and restraint. I prefer to run ultra-low magic campaigns with an equivalent rarity of high-level opponents and creatures. Paradoxically to some perhaps, that actually makes it much easier to build epic-style storylines and climaxes.

 

[NemesisPress]

As opposed to dragons, elves, goblins, ogres, giants, demons, devils, unicorns, trolls, orcs, halflings, gnomes, titans, zombies, skeletons, vampires, werewolves, ghosts, pixies, mermaids, gargoyles, pegasi, griffons, minotaurs, genies, and centaurs?

Well there is a difference between borrowing from generic mythology and a specific literary source. D&D, of course, has always borrowed from Tolkien, but it is interesting if WoTC now feels they can borrow extensively from Lovecraft (perhaps via their closer association with Chaosium).

 

[WildWeasel]

The ELH is really a big toolkit, and one needs to figure out what one is gonna do with it and work on that. It's not a "grab and use whole cloth" kinda thing. Decide for yourself what fits and what doesn't.

As for the complaints of all the epic stuff being "bigger number versions" of exisiting stuff...well, what else could they do. There's been lots of vague wsishes for something more "creative". Yet I bet if WotC hadn't taken that route, everyone would be complaining about how different from the core rules the ELH is and how nothing builds on earileir material and how its all wacky and goofy.