[EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK] I'm scared

[Kai Lord]

Kai Lord:

I'm guessing we just have different ideas as to what "feels" right in a campaign. There comes a point, a specific power level--for PCs, mind you--where the game changes feel, at least to me.

I know what you mean. My point is that I don't see it as an "epic vs. non-epic" thing. The game changes feel when characters advance to fifth level and are no longer in so much danger as getting killed out right by a single unlucky to hit roll. The feel changes when they start getting magic items as mundane and easily abused as elven cloaks. It changes again when they can start teleporting. And so on.

I see a lot of the "different" kinds of challenges as just coming out of roleplaying a campaign with any modicum of depth. I once had a character save the world, interact with (and even defeat) 23rd level evil wizards, and come to a truce of respect with a fighter-mage on his way to lichdom while travelling through time in search of an artifact that could ruin the world--when he was 7th level.

I've also DM'd a campaign where the player's 18th level thief spent almost the entire campaign building and nurturing his underground empire in a major city. Which of those campaigns featured the more varied and "epic" challenges? The first, of course, it had that epic "feel" through and through, which was totally different than the localized threats of the high-level campaign.

Basically, "epic" is where ever you put it in the campaign, and its not something based on aspects as easily measurable as character abilities and power.

And to be entirely honest, being able to challenge multiple gods and win is part of the difference, in my mind, between "standard" and "epic-level" D&D. I tend to take the "gods don't have stats and cannot be battled directly" approach in most of my campaigns. I'm not opposed to a game where they can be challenged, but it has a different--yeah, you guessed it--feel than the ones I normally run. And again, feel is what ELH lacked, IMHO.

Sure an adventure where a player challenges the gods will have a different feel than something less ambitious. Those adventures are rare for me as well, that particular example was just the result of a player getting inspired by some of the novels that D&D is supposed to emulate and I wanted to see if I could pull it off so I obliged.

The point is, we can already see where the ELH fits into all sorts of "standard" fantasy campaigns. Look at Legolas. Could easily be an epic character adventuring with non-epics in a sprawling standard adventure. But being able to unload with the Improved Manyshot and Storm of Arrows feats on waves of Uruk-hai isn't going to make him immune to the One Ring of Power.

The ELH supports Tolkien, Dragonlance, Wu Xia, and God smiting paladins who ride Plutonium Dragons while thieves steal the stars from the sky. Notice that the book doesn't spend time illustrating what a Tolkienesque or Wu Xia setting is like.

I'm not entirely sure why we're having this debate, to be honest.

Because I'm excited about the book, and have no problem taking the oppurtunity to offer some counterpoints to those who are less than excited. If you get nothing from my commentary, the time spent projecting my thoughts was enjoyably stimulating so I have fun either way.

Someone who has only experienced anime like Dragon Ball Z might look at the ELH and say, "the feel is off. I thought this would help me play some of that 'Dragonlance' stuff I hear about. Here are Epic Spells that you could use to counter gods with, but what kind of story would fit into?"

There's no way they could cater to every person that hasn't read every kind of story featuring epic characters. That's where my hand-holding comments came from. To some people epic adventures equate to Thor comics, for some its anime and wu xia, for others its Greek myth, Tolkien, Dragonlance, or Planescape. If you have trouble conceiving what kinds of stories the powers of the book fit into, I feel its unfair to expect the ELH to walk you through them. There's so much fantasy that D&D really hasn't been able to emulate, fantasy that the ELH now provides rules for.

I'm glad other people enjoy it more than I did. I want to see it succeed. And I will use it at times. It's just less than I hoped for.

Fair enough. I hope you enjoy your campaigns as much as I have enjoyed mine.

 

[Knight Otu]

They're not groupies, they're "hangers on." What does that mean, exactly? I dunno, but a 23rd level Sorcerer could easily have a 15th level Bard cohort. Two, if he took leadership twice. I don't think it's such a big deal.

The epic level city guards, on the other hand, are pretty silly.

I guess our tastes differ, then.

Please keep in mind that I do not have the book yet, so the following arguments can be flawed.

I do think, as the city of Union is an epic city, with the average tough being high level, high level guards are needed to keep order, at least somewhat. The mercanes are always lawful neutral, according to the MotP, so they will try to do everything to keep their city orderly, at least outwardly. (Granted, some things I have heard about the guards make them somewhat more silly, but not too silly).

Also, I can take heroes admiring greater heroes, bards admiring greater bards... But not to the point of being groupies, hanger-ons or whatever name they might have.

 

[tsadkiel]

I guess our tastes differ, then.

But, but . . . my tastes are the universal measure of what is good and true, asren't they?

There should be Epic guards in Union - I don't think that they should be human fighters who have fought their way up through 20+ levels and then decided to become beat cops, though. (And the average city guard is 14th level, which is a little better, but not much.) As Psion mentioned, Leshay mercenaries, super golems - any of these would work and not snap my disbelief suspenders.

The bard hangers on are mentioned briefly as part of a sample encounter. They are very easily ignored.