RangerWickett
Legend
Heh, in Elements of Magic's revision, the best you can manage is to increase your Intelligence by +14 for a few minutes. Much less broken, I think.
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Epic Level Spellcraft DCs
- Thread starter Cylock
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Given that it costs tens of thousands of XP, and hundreds of thousands of GP - no, RW, I don't think "+14 for a few minutes" is either fair or balanced. You could buy a magic item that'd increase an attribute by +12 constantly ... why spend nearly as much gold, a huge chunk of XP, and one of yoru precious few epic feat opportunities, just for the effect you describe ... ?
RangerWickett
Legend
Pax said:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. In EOM, without having to spend XP or money to research, a 20th level character could get a +14 stat boost for 1 minute, or a +12 boost for an hour, or +10 for a day. Sure, you'd have to devote about 5% of your daily magic power for this effect, but that's a pretty nice strong boost.
If you want a magic item of permanent stat boosting, for 256,000gp you could buy and item that grants +12. I don't have the Epic Level Handbook, and personally I didn't want to write rules for epic gaming, so I'm not sure how that compares to the prices in the ELH. I just know that huge stat boosts are silly.
However, if we were to extrapolate the existing table into epic levels, a 50th level mage could get a +20 ability score by casting the same spell each day.
RangerWickett said:
Well, there's a big reeason for me to not get the "EOM". 256,000gp for a +12 to an attribute? Jeeze, that's ludicrously low-priced! A Headband of Epic Intellect (+12), per the ELH, costs 1,440,000gp ... about five TIMES what this "EOM" would charge you!
Epic spells also have only Verbal and Somatic ocmponents, etc, etc. However, they cost piled of gold and experience points to research.RuleMaster said:
The spell would only cost experience if the developer wants it to; doing so reduces the Spellcraft DC associated with the spell, which in turn decreases the gold cost to develop the spell, which in turn decreases the XP cost, too.
Hi Pax!
In any case, you didn't take several things into account, because you don't know EoM - so your comparison is simply wrong.
1. EoM allows an easy access to spells - you can create new spells (nearly) on the fly (within certain limitations like accessible spell lists and caster level, which make an EoM spell with the same effect as a core spell more costly). So EoM deemphasizes spells as such, while it emphasizes the ability to use magic. (Personally, I'd like to have a mage which is feared because of his power and not because he knows Mordenkainen Disjunction.)
2. EoM does give high boni compared to core spells, but it can affect only certain boni (I don't remember the list, but IIRC it has 3 or 4 entries) - you won't find a spell which can improve e.g. natural armor like Barkskin. So instead having a lot of spells affecting a lot of bonis a little EoM has spells which affect some bonis more.
3. Your Headband of Epic Intellect (+12) costs in reality only the HALF compared to the EoM equivalent. Yes, your calculation is correct, but not the comparison. The EoM magic item cost formula is probably (Magic Points cost)^2 x 1000 (extrapolated from the above example, but something on this line must be true from that, what I know), while core magic items have Bonus^2 x 1000 and core epic magic items have Bonus^2 x 1000 x 10. Because we are talking about a EoM non-epic magic item, so we can't use the epic creation rules, if we want a correct comparison regarding the power.
Without the factor x10 epic items would be a lot cheaper than EoM items and this factor has been included only, because the other non-epic rules and adventures assume a power cap which wouldn't exist otherwise. Now the items are so expensive that the gap between the power capped items and the epic items can be ignored safely. If you still want a comparison with the factor x10, then EoM items become more expensive than epic items around the bonus of +22 - I guess, a EoM caster with a level between 65 and 70 would be needed to create this effect. Yes, a caster level between 65 and 70, while with the core rules even a magic user with a caster level of 21 could create such a item, as long he has the right feats and enough gold and XPs.
Do you have still the same opinion as above?
You don't have anything against a non-epic spell giving a +12 bonus, but you fear the econonomic consequences of a permanent item giving the same bonus?Pax said:
In any case, you didn't take several things into account, because you don't know EoM - so your comparison is simply wrong.
1. EoM allows an easy access to spells - you can create new spells (nearly) on the fly (within certain limitations like accessible spell lists and caster level, which make an EoM spell with the same effect as a core spell more costly). So EoM deemphasizes spells as such, while it emphasizes the ability to use magic. (Personally, I'd like to have a mage which is feared because of his power and not because he knows Mordenkainen Disjunction.)
2. EoM does give high boni compared to core spells, but it can affect only certain boni (I don't remember the list, but IIRC it has 3 or 4 entries) - you won't find a spell which can improve e.g. natural armor like Barkskin. So instead having a lot of spells affecting a lot of bonis a little EoM has spells which affect some bonis more.
3. Your Headband of Epic Intellect (+12) costs in reality only the HALF compared to the EoM equivalent. Yes, your calculation is correct, but not the comparison. The EoM magic item cost formula is probably (Magic Points cost)^2 x 1000 (extrapolated from the above example, but something on this line must be true from that, what I know), while core magic items have Bonus^2 x 1000 and core epic magic items have Bonus^2 x 1000 x 10. Because we are talking about a EoM non-epic magic item, so we can't use the epic creation rules, if we want a correct comparison regarding the power.
Without the factor x10 epic items would be a lot cheaper than EoM items and this factor has been included only, because the other non-epic rules and adventures assume a power cap which wouldn't exist otherwise. Now the items are so expensive that the gap between the power capped items and the epic items can be ignored safely. If you still want a comparison with the factor x10, then EoM items become more expensive than epic items around the bonus of +22 - I guess, a EoM caster with a level between 65 and 70 would be needed to create this effect. Yes, a caster level between 65 and 70, while with the core rules even a magic user with a caster level of 21 could create such a item, as long he has the right feats and enough gold and XPs.
Do you have still the same opinion as above?
I don't have anything against an epic spell giving a +12 bonus, or some non=epic spells giving a very brief +12 bonus. But, yes, I have a big problem with allowing a continuous +12 bonus from a non-epic item.RuleMaster said:Hi Pax!
You don't have anything against a non-epic spell giving a +12 bonus, but you fear the econonomic consequences of a permanent item giving the same bonus?
No; now I like this "EoM" even less. IT sounds, to me, like a VERY badly-thought-out idea that I would never even consider allowing at my table. No offense, mind.Do you have still the same opinion as above?
RangerWickett
Legend
Pax said:
From a logical standpoint, the possibility of a +12 item being broken is slim. Take the least offensive stat, Strength. A +12 Strength is about the same as a +6 weapon. Now, of course the strength gives you more flexibility since it helps a few skills and applies to any weapon, but a +5 weapon is 50,000. All epic x10 cost multipliers aside, a +6 weapon oughta cost 72,000. Compare this to 256,000 for a +12 Strength item, and it ain't so bad, especially when even a 20th level PC should top off at 760,000gp.
I don't have the ELH, and in designing Elements of Magic I focused on making it work for levels 1 to 20. It's perfectly possible a 20th level fighter might have an item that grants +12 Strength (256,000gp), and a +9 sword (289,000gp), and an item that turns him into a hill giant (169,000gp), for a total attack bonus of +44 (+20 level, +7 hill giant Str, +6 item Str, +9 sword, +2 greater weapon focus), but his AC would be rather low.
Falling Icicle
Adventurer
Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that in order to cast most Epic spells one must have an Intelligence so high that Mystra looks like a complete moron in comparison?
