Epic Level take two

[BiggusGeekus]

My problem -- bearing in mind that I haven't read the product yet -- is that the d20 skill system leaves little to chance at these levels.

DC: 50
Skill: 60

Odds are strong you'll succeed. The randomness is best when the task DC is 10-15 above where your skill is. This is pretty easy to gague below 20th level, but beyond that the skill checks aren't going to be as random. We'll just be able to look at our skill bonus and the DC, in the majority of the cases, to know know what happens.

And if the DM arbitrariliy assigns DCs that are 10-15 above the player bonus that still won't be fun because the players will be left wondering why they're bothering assigning skill points when the effective chance of success remains the same.

I dunno. I buy this book depending on how much of it is OGL'd.

 

[Crothian]

That seems to be the way it is for lower level PC. THose Tumble checks area gamble at levels 1-3, then they start to get easy, then they are practically automatic. Same for those concentration checks to avoid AoO. Skills with a set DC are always going to passed by PCs if the game continues into higher levels. I don't think that's a problem with the ELH, I think that's the way the whole system works.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Oh, I agree!

But by the time you get to 21st level the problem is in full force. With a game that spans from level 1 to level 20 the players have at least earned the ability to automatically accomplish tasks.

I don't know. Maybe epic characters can buy an extra d20 to roll as some kind of super-feat. We'll see.

 

[Darkness]

where are you getting this information? Have you read something or is it just speculation?

Well, for one, the Epic Level FAQ makes it clear that PC classes go above 20th level. So why shouldn't they get hp after that point? The only thing implying that one shouldn't get hp after 20th level is the FRCS and the FRCS rules (as I already said above) are not the same as the ELH rules. Also, it just wouldn't make sense not to gain more hp; your enemies will be tougher, too, after all...

Further, there are the scoops on several deities on these boards and the deities get hp by class after 20th character level (and also maximum hp per die since they are deities - and 20 HD as Outsiders - but that's beside the point).

And then, there's that [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/47]Magic: the Gathering character[/url] on the WotC page. Now, she's been not been created completely by-the-book, but she also has hp after 20th level and the author explicitely said that the "unfamiliar stuff" was the part containing house rules - and hp aren't unfamiliar...

Hmm... There was even more to it than that but I can't recall the rest at the moment...

 

[Florin]

My problem -- bearing in mind that I haven't read the product yet -- is that the d20 skill system leaves little to chance at these levels.

DC: 50
Skill: 60

Odds are strong you'll succeed. The randomness is best when the task DC is 10-15 above where your skill is. This is pretty easy to gague below 20th level, but beyond that the skill checks aren't going to be as random. We'll just be able to look at our skill bonus and the DC, in the majority of the cases, to know know what happens.

And I consider this a good thing. After all this is "epic" level gaming here. We're talking the big movers and shakers of the world, the best of the best, the cream of the crop, the people who stand a chance of changing the course of history for all time. Don't you think they should be able to cast a spell without drawing an attack of opportunity or be able to move through combat and not draw attacks of opportunity? If someone takes the time and trouble to drop 30 skill points into Intuit Direction, don't you think that character DESERVES to be able to not fail a normal check?

And if the DM arbitrariliy assigns DCs that are 10-15 above the player bonus that still won't be fun because the players will be left wondering why they're bothering assigning skill points when the effective chance of success remains the same.

I dunno. I buy this book depending on how much of it is OGL'd.

Well, you won't see any of it added to the SRD for quite awhile, I'm sure, since they want to work through the class books first, but I'm sure a lot of it will make it into the SRD eventually.

 

[Sonny]

Originally posted by Darkness
Hmm... There was even more to it than that but I can't recall the rest at the moment...

Sean K. Reynolds also confirmed that there was a change to Epic Level rules in regards to hit points. Yes, you do gain another HD for each level after 20.

 

[S'mon]

Question, Where are you all getting 400 hp from. As far as I know you stop at 20th. Your skills maybe mor formatable and maybe better saves but unless there has been a release that I have not seen hp still stop at 20th.

Under **1st edition** AD&D rules deity pantheon heads all had 400 hp, with other deities being scaled down from there (eg Thor had 399 hp). This was A DIFFERENT SET OR RULES from 3rd edition D&D! U_K's character Thrin was created under 1st edition rules (as a 3rd level Cavalier, originally), and over many years of play in my campaign reached the status of lesser god, while myriad other PCs fell by the wayside. His stats will be in the Immortals Handbook, by U_K, which will be released as an e-book, it details deity-level play and should go well as a companion to the 3rd ed Deity & Demigods book.

 

[jollyninja]

OK, my question is how exactly do you nay sayers expect a character to reach lev 75 weither multiclassed or not? under the existing rules it would be nearly impossible to gain experience once you reached a certian point. one of my 2e characters converted to 3e as a level 27 character and it was nearly impossible to get xp for anything in the core books. if a dm wants to create a bunch of adventures for one character that will actually get him to level 75, all the power to him.

 

[Numion]

OK, my question is how exactly do you nay sayers expect a character to reach lev 75 weither multiclassed or not? under the existing rules it would be nearly impossible to gain experience once you reached a certian point.

There's a new MM coming out this or was it next month.. it's called 'Deities and Demigods'. It has all kinds of tuff opponents for epic characters to kill. I'd say your level 27 character is up a level after he has 'cleared' a couple of pantheons.

Really I think that the book answers these questions.

BTW, I did kill Hera in 1e. She was a wuss.

 

[Darkness]

There's a new MM coming out this or was it next month.. it's called 'Deities and Demigods'. It has all kinds of tuff opponents for epic characters to kill.

I'm very excited about this, too. It will certainly be as good as the "Monster Player's Guide" was/is - which contained the stats for all the neat creatures we loved to fight in 1e and 2e (e.g., dragons, giants, liches, etc.) ready for use as player characters.

BTW, I did kill Hera in 1e. She was a wuss.

Her 3e stats are pretty butch, though; check out this thread's predecessor for details.