Epic Magic Big Thread

Seeds edited to reflect (2 x Spell Level) +4. Added notes at bottom of post to indicate other edits.

I think I like it. I feel like I may need to rein in mitigating factors more now, though.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I like it better. I think a few of the seed specific factors are a bit high. Like +20 to extend the polymorph seed to incorporeal targets. Does spectre form really need to be USP 42?

And a few of the fortify factors- USP 8 gives you 20 hp, but each hp thereafter costs +1 USP? Assuming you could take a factor more than once, wouldn't it make more sense to just take multiple copies of this seed? Maybe every 5 hp is +1 USP.

And if USP 8 gives +5 natural armor, it seems very restrictive to say that each additional +1 of NA costs +3 USP. I know you are worried about a character becoming unhittable, but there's always touch attacks. Plus, some monsters (swarms) are immune to weapon attacks- why shouldn't PCs have the option of getting sky high ACs?

Similarly, I think I know the worries that lead you to tie attack rolls, skill checks and saves together, but it really makes more sense to separate these three categories out. The obvious way of dividing +3/+1 into three parts is at +1/+1 each. Although the applications are daunting: A lasting true strike that gives +20 to all attacks for 20 minutes... USP 28? Now that's an epic buff. Too much for a 12th level spell? I dunno.

Oh! And the modifier for forcing a unique creature to answer your call- if all your modifiers and costs are about half what is in the ELH, then that +60 modifier should be less, too. Maybe +40 would be enough?

[edit]
If you think of it, it might be helpful to list the base spells for the various subseeds as well. Like blindness/deafness in the Afflict seed.

I think it might also be helpful to define a name for this system. The one in the epic level handbook is the ELH- this one is...?

Along those same lines, the units for the Spellcraft Prerequiste should be defined. I've sometimes called them SP, other times USP. Do you have a preference?
[/edit]
 
Last edited:

I think a few of the seed specific factors are a bit high. Like +20 to extend the polymorph seed to incorporeal targets. Does spectre form really need to be USP 42?

That's actually a holdover. Originally, I was going to peg the "Overcome Specific Immunity" factor at +20, but decided on +10. Polymorphing an incorporeal is a corollary.

And a few of the fortify factors- USP 8 gives you 20 hp, but each hp thereafter costs +1 USP? Assuming you could take a factor more than once, wouldn't it make more sense to just take multiple copies of this seed? Maybe every 5 hp is +1 USP.

Another reason why fortify is unsatisfactory. Temporary hp are based off of false life assuming a maximum roll and without the level cap. Maybe if 2 spell levels can grant you 20 temporary hp, then 4 can grant you 40. +5hp/+1 SP is another way of rendering that. I'm slightly leery of this one escalating, though. Unfortunately, I can't find any other spells to use as a yardstick - temporary hp increases are usually bound up in buffs with a wide range of other bonuses.

[Edit]: Average false life (lvl 2) at 15.5hp; empowered false life (lvl 4) at 23.25hp. Change subseed to grant 15 temporary hp, +2 per 1 additional SP. [/Edit]

And if USP 8 gives +5 natural armor, it seems very restrictive to say that each additional +1 of NA costs +3 USP. I know you are worried about a character becoming unhittable, but there's always touch attacks. Plus, some monsters (swarms) are immune to weapon attacks- why shouldn't PCs have the option of getting sky high ACs?

This is based off of the progression of barkskin, so I'm reluctant to change it. But barkskin (I just realized) has a base duration of 200 minutes, and this isn't included in the seed description. I think this problem just solved itself - I'll extend the duration on this subseed.

Similarly, I think I know the worries that lead you to tie attack rolls, skill checks and saves together, but it really makes more sense to separate these three categories out. The obvious way of dividing +3/+1 into three parts is at +1/+1 each. Although the applications are daunting: A lasting true strike that gives +20 to all attacks for 20 minutes... USP 28? Now that's an epic buff. Too much for a 12th level spell? I dunno.

Ooh, not going there, right now. That's a barrel of worms. This provision is based off of heroism (which also should have a 200 minute duration; I guess I should pay more attention to spell durations). And why not have a subseed that just makes you more heroic?

Oh! And the modifier for forcing a unique creature to answer your call- if all your modifiers and costs are about half what is in the ELH, then that +60 modifier should be less, too. Maybe +40 would be enough?

I'm actually thinking +25. You're still paying through the nose for everything else, as well: effectively your +25 gets you a brand name (e.g. "Orcus"). You could call an elder titan with less hassle and have just as much fun.
 
Last edited:

Reining in Some Factors

In the light of reduced Spellcraft Prerequisites for seeds, I'm thinking about the following changes to factors. Not necessarily all of them.

1) Add a second 'Flexible Provision' factor: there would be limited flexibility (+4) and great flexibility (+10). I still haven't decided exactly how to frame these (or limiting factors, for that matter) but the idea is to subsume a great number of ad hoc factors.

2) Making backlash d6 Con damage for every 3 points of mitigation. This reduces the average effectiveness of using backlash by 15% and adds some nasty randomness - which I think backlash needs. Its kind of an ugly mechanic, though. Autoimmolator might need to be retooled if I go this route.

3) Reducing Specialization mitigating factors from -5 to -3 or -2. Actually, -2 would make more sense (a nonepic Specialist gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks when dealing with effects from his specialty school).

4) Reducing the mitigating factors in the epic [divine] feats from -20 to -15.

5) Changing the casting time mitigating factors:

1 round ---> -2
1 minute --> -4
10 mins ---> -6
1 hour ----> -10
1 day -----> -15
1 week ---> -20
1 month --> -30
 
Last edited:

Sepulchrave II said:
1) Add a second 'Flexible Provision' factor: there would be limited flexibility (+4) and great flexibility (+10). I still haven't decided exactly how to frame these (or limiting factors, for that matter) but the idea is to subsume a great number of ad hoc factors.

I think the limited flexibility provision is a good idea. I was thinking of that with the Summon seed, actually, but got distracted. Summon monster lets you choose from a small list of choices, but the target of an epic summon is chosen at spell development. Which could be desirable from a game play perspective, since it simplifies play. The player only has to have one card with the monster's stats on it. Limited flexibility which would allow (say) 4 choices would be quite manageable. Similar remarks apply to the Polymorph seed.

The new version of polymorph is kind of growing on me, btw. It occurred to me that if the assumed form retained magic items, then you couldn't use the stats from out of the book. You'd have to include the amulet of natural armor +5, the mithral twilight chain shirt +8, the cloak of protection +5, etc., etc. and recalculate all sorts of stats. A mess. Just for ease of play it makes sense to say that magic items are absorbed and neutralized. Basing the mechanics on planar exchange (in SC) might be an even better solution. A polymorphed creature is not actually changed, just switched.

If characters wish to preserve their buffs they might strip before assuming a humanoid form of the same size. If this will cause a hassle you might want to include an "amorphous" provision in a flexibility factor (either limited or not) that says that the assumed form doesn't have item slots. The magic messes up the chakras, and so rings, cloaks, boots, etc.. don't work. But this should only apply to a flexible spell. If someone learns gloom form, say, then they could calculate the modifiers as a template to apply to their current stats. You might even waive the requirement that items be removed then redonned.

(Hmmm. A gloom has a KR of 33, which correspons to a CR of 22. The ELH pegs it as CR 25. I generally trust the KR more than the WotC CR, but dropping the dagger would remove any doubt: I'd go with the CR 22. So gloom form would be quite an accessible spell.)

Sepulchrave II said:
Making backlash d6 Con damage for every 3 points of mitigation. This reduces the average effectiveness of using backlash by 15% and adds some nasty randomness - which I think backlash needs. Its kind of an ugly mechanic, though. Autoimmolator might need to be retooled if I go this route.

I think it reduces the effectiveness by more than 15%. A character with a Con of 18 has a small risk of instant death if he takes 9 points of mitigation (3d6 Con damage). So he might only go with 6. Previously he might go 16 or 17.

I am assuming that a divine caster will quickly devise an epic healing spell which is narrowly focused on healing backlash damage. Healing only backlash damage seems to be a major limiting factor, so the effective caster level can be put quite high; it will probably be effective.

This means that the mitigating effect of backlash has to be pretty close to the contribution of an epic spell slot. Which I gather is 10. I'd say that a character shouldn't get 20 points of backlash. 15 might be good, though.

I don't think the factor needs to be random. Players will do everything possible to minimize the random factor, and if not, well, it would be a lousy way to kill a character.

Given the mechanic for Destroyer of Life, Magnificat and Runesong, maybe backlash should reduce one's Con to 1 for a flat bonus of -15. Autoimmolator could maybe allow backlash to apply to Dex or Strength instead; an autoimmolator could thus cast 3 epic spells with backlash before having to recover. You could use an epic Heal spell to restore this damage, but unless it is specially tailored to apply only to backlash an opposed caster level check is required. A spell doesn't have to make an opposed check if all it does is heal backlash.

Sepulchrave II said:
Temporary hp are based off of false life assuming a maximum roll and without the level cap...

False life is great when you are low level, but is less significant at higher levels. It doesn't look like it can bear the burden of supporting epic effects. (Neither does barkskin, to tell you the truth.) It would be nice if the temporary hit point mechanic from the Polymorph seed could be split off somehow.

Hmmm. How about this: use the mechanic for the Con buff to determine extra hit points (so USP 8 = 2 hp/die). But rather than also buff the fort save, make the hit points temporary. That way the character isn't in trouble when the spell runs out. Sure it'll give a lot of hit points, but hit points don't last long in epic encounters. I think it should give between 100 and 200 hit points at low epic levels.

Let's see. If the basic USP 24 spell gives +12 Con, that's a +6 modifier, times 21... yeah. I think 126 points is pretty reasonable for an entry-level epic spell.

Revisions 3, 4 and 5 look fine. 3 makes a lot of sense, 4 could go either way. 5... well, I think dramatic considerations have to apply. PCs aren't going to be able to spend a month on something without the DM's active cooperation. But a higher mitigating factor lets off-stage NPCs get away with more stuff. At the moment I can't think of much of an argument for a particular number.

Sepulchrave II said:
I'm actually thinking +25. You're still paying through the nose for everything else, as well: effectively your +25 gets you a brand name (e.g. "Orcus"). You could call an elder titan with less hassle and have just as much fun.

I'd probably reverse engineer the number based on the fact that Fillein bound Graz'zt.
 

Urk. I hate the idea of a 'mitigation' mechanic that isn't actually risky. Sure, it's a lousy way to die. But is it lousier than being hit with a magic missile while your Con is 1?

Have you considered Ability Burn from the XPH? It's like ability damage, but it can only be healed naturally -- you can't use a spell to immediately heal yourself.

2 points of Con burn (or 4 of any mental stat) would serve as a nice limiting factor, I think.

Cheers, -- N
 

Hi Kerrick. I know the epic spell system has been bugging you for years as well.

Empathy, man

Heh, thanks. I've had a good deal more success after I came up with a much simpler version. It's level-based, like the first one, but not nearly as math-intensive.

These are revised from the animate dead seed in the ELH, right? How did you arrive at the numbers?

Umm.. I'm not totally sure now. Here's a link to the thread[/quote] where I posted it originally. When I was converting everything to level-based the first time around, I took all the numbers and halved them right off, then tweaked things as I went along. Since the original animate dead seed was based on the caster level of the undead and the spell used, I based my new numbers off the revised spells - a lot of the undead from 3.0 got swapped around with 3.5's create (greater) undead. The CR-equivalent table further down the thread is slightly wrong - it's CR+9 to get the CL.


That's the problem with a Spellcraft-based system - you can't emulate a level-based system properly, because they're apples and oranges.

Have you considered Ability Burn from the XPH? It's like ability damage, but it can only be healed naturally -- you can't use a spell to immediately heal yourself.

2 points of Con burn (or 4 of any mental stat) would serve as a nice limiting factor, I think.

I used this in my first version, and I really liked it. I went with -3 levels per point of ability damage, or -8 for drain. That would equate to (roughly) -6 SP or -16 SP.

The Epic boards over at WotC have a whole thread devoted to factors and such, too - you might want to take a look there.
 

I've noticed an anomaly in the general factors. A seed can be turned into range personal at a cost of +0, then turned into a 20 ft. radius centered on you at a cost of +15. This can be useful in buffing your whole party. Or in enhancing all the swords to be used in a major battle. (How many weapons can you fit in a 20 ft. radius? Assuming, that is, that the duration is rectifed to fit the 1 hour/level of the greater magic weapon.) Or in resurrecting a whole lot of dead people. You could stack them like cordwood- at a USP of 42 it wouldn't be that hard to raise them.

Thing is, the general factor for adding an extra target is +4 USP. One extra target for +4, two extra targets for +8, three extra targets for +12 USP, and dozens (or hundreds) more for +15? That's an awfully big jump. I think that factor needs tighter scrutiny.

Anyway, I've been rewriting some of the epic seeds to fit my own aesthetic sense as to what epic spells should be capable of. Animate Dead is basically my suggested version above. Conjure is more wish than true creation, but streamlined. I split the fortify seed into two parts: fortify creature, and fortify object. They are pretty cranked up- some might need to be ratcheted back a bit. (My philosophy is the opposite of Sep's in this regard).

A few suggested spells- with a few points of mitigating factors they should be available to PCs who are 21 to 24th level.

By "KR", I mean 2/3 the CR listed in Upper_Krust's "Challenging Challenge Ratings" appendix. They are more accurate (IMHO) than WotC CRs, especially for epic creatures.

[sblock=Seed: Animate Dead]
Seed: Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]

Root Spell: Animate dead, create undead
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 20+
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The caster can turn the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow his or her spoken commands, or alternatively create more powerful undead which he or she must control through some other means. A destroyed undead can’t be animated again.

At a base Spellcraft Prerequisite of 20, the caster can use the animate dead seed to create undead:
  • Up to 40 HD of skeletons and/or zombies may be created. The undead can follow the caster, or they can remain in an Area and attack any creature (or a specific type of creature) entering the place. The undead remain animated until they are destroyed, and remain under the caster’s control indefinitely.
    Factors: For each additional 2 HD of undead created, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1.
  • Control: A caster can naturally control 4 HD per caster level of mindless undead creatures he or she has personally created, regardless of the method used. If the caster exceeds this natural limit, newly created creatures fall under his or her control, and excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled (the caster chooses which creatures are released). If the caster is a cleric, any undead he or she commands through his or her ability to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the natural limit.
    Factor: For every 4 HD of skeletons or zombies that will not count towards the natural limit, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1. These undead will be automatically controlled.
  • The caster can also create undead other than skeletons and zombies, including intelligent undead and undead with templates: a templated undead is built upon the race, class, hit dice and abilities which the target creature or character possessed in life. Intelligent undead can follow more sophisticated commands and have a base attitude of indifferent, but are not automatically under the control of the caster. The caster may create any single undead. This has a Spellcraft Prerequisite of 20, or twice the CR of the undead created, whichever is higher.
  • Multiple undead of the same type can be created as long as the total challenge of the created undead is less than one quarter the square of the Spellcraft Prerequisite.
(The challenge of a group of monsters is the sum of the squares of the CRs of the monsters in it.)
[/sblock]

Create vampire. Base creature must be CR 18 or lower (or KR 23 or lower). Takes 1 hour to cast.

[sblock=Seed: Conjure]Seed: Conjure
Conjuration (Creation)

Root Spell: True creation
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 20
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Unattended object or quantity of nonliving matter up to 20 cu. ft.
Duration: Special: 20 minutes, permanent or instantaneous. See below.
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This seed creates an unattended object or quantity of nonliving matter of up to 20 cubic feet in volume. The caster must succeed at an appropriate skill check to make a complex item. The seed can create matter ranging in hardness and rarity from vegetable matter all the way up to mithral and even adamantine. Up to 200 000 gp worth of magical items and intrinsically valuable items can be made; the caster may choose what the spell will make at the time of casting.
Duration: The spell is instantaneous if non-valuable materials are made, or if the caster pays an additional cost in xp equal to 8% of the gp value created. Charges cannot be expended from magical items unless they are created instantaneously. Alternatively the spell can be made permanent by embedding spell levels; 1 level of embedded spells is needed for each 20 000 gp of value created. If neither of these options are chosen when the spell is cast, the created items have a base duration of 20 minutes.
Factors: For each additional 10 cubic feet of matter which can be created, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1. For each additional 10 000 gp of value which can be created, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1.[/sblock]

A typical use of this spell might be to conjure a mirror of mental prowess, embedding a 9th level spell slot to keep it until it is dispelled. Its once a week function doesn't reset if recast- a week actually must pass.

[sblock=Seed: Fortify Creature]Seed: Fortify Creature
Transmutation

Root Spell: Bull’s strength, barkskin, heroism, stoneskin, spell resistance, etc.
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 14+
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 20 minutes
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Spells using the fortify creatureseed augment one or more of the target's faculties, either to enable it to withstand a particular kind of threat, or to lend it additional power or effectiveness in a certain area. Fortify creature is a versatile seed with many possible applications.

At a base Spellcraft Prerequisite of 14, the caster can choose to develop a spell which can do one of the following:

  • The caster can choose to develop a spell which grants a +10 enhancement bonus to any ability score. The ability score to be enhanced must either be chosen during spell development, or the spell flexibility factor included in development to allow such an enhancement to be determined when the spell is cast.
    Factor: For each additional +1 bonus, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
    (A Spellcraft Prerequisite of 14 corresponds to a 5th level spell. Bull’s strength gives a base +4 enhancement as a 2nd level spell; I extrapolate this to a +10 bonus at 5th level, and halve the rate thereafter.)
  • The fortify creature seed can also be used to grant 5 temporary hit points per hit dice of the target.
    Factor: For each additional temporary hit point bestowed per target’s hit dice, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.
    (A +10 Con bonus grants this many hit points. Rather than also give a Fortitude save bonus, the hit points are made temporary.)
  • The fortify ability seed can grant spell resistance 32.
    Factor: Each additional point of spell resistance increases the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1.
    (Spell resistance)
  • The fortify abilityseed can grant damage reduction 10/adamantine, preventing a total of 200 points of damage in this fashion before it is discharged.
    Factors: For each additional point of damage reduction, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1; for each additional 50 points which can be absorbed before the spell is discharged, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. To increase the damage reduction value to adamantine and epic, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +10.
    (Basically stoneskin, but with the damage capacity boosted a little to make it a 5th level spell. Epic stoneskin would be like a 10th level spell.)
  • Grant a +8 enhancement bonus to natural armor which stacks with existing natural armor, but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor.
    Factor: For each additional +1 bonus, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
    (Barkskin is up to +5 as a 2nd level spell, increase this bonus by +1/spell level until 5th level, then halve the rate of improvement.)
  • Grant a +4 morale bonus to attack rolls, saving throws and skill checks.
    Factor: For each additional +1 bonus assessed to all three of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
    (Heroism is +2 at 3rd level. +1 per spell level to 5th level, then slow down.)
  • Grant a +6 morale bonus to either attack rolls, saving throws or skill checks.
    Factor: For each additional +1 bonus assessed to one of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
(Narrowing the focus of the spell is equivalent to a -4 mitigating factor)
Fortify creature cannot be made permanent.[/sblock]

An epic stoneskin (200 hp capacity, DR 10/adamantine and epic) would be a possibility. A different spell would give a continuous +10 to attack rolls. A third would give 8 hp/hit dice in temporary hit points (200 hp to a 25th level fighter).

[sblock=Seed: Fortify object]Seed: Fortify Object
Transmutation

Root Spell: Greater magic weapon
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One suit of armor, shield, weapon or fifty projectiles (all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting)
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: Yes (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No

This seed grants a +5 effective bonus to any armor, shield or weapon, or up to fifty projectiles (arrows, bolts or bullets) of the same kind. The bonus may be divided between enhancement bonuses or special abilities (such as flaming), with the exact distribution of these bonuses determined when the spell is developed. If no enhancement bonus is is to be granted, then the spell can be cast only on magical weapons, shields and armor. Particular enhancements might have no effect if applied to the wrong sort of target. (The vorpal enhancement would have no effect on a shield, for example, but any enhancement bonus would still count.)
Factors: To add +1 to the effective bonus, add +2 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite. If this would increase the effective bonus above +10 or the enhancement bonus above +5, add an additional +2 (+4 total). Weapons with an enhancement bonus above +5 are considered epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. For each +1 of bonus to be determined at the time of casting, add +1 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite.
Note:This application cannot be made permanent.

The fortify object seed can also be used to increase the hardness of materials. This application has a base Spellcraft Prerequisite of 16. The seed’s effect is to change up to 200 cubic feet of wood or a softer substance, or up to 20 cubic feet of a metal or mineral by 10 points: for each additional 50 cubic feet of wood, or each additional cubic foot of metal or mineral affected, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1. For each additional point of hardness granted, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. Hardness granted to items is a permanent effect.[/sblock]

A apropos weapon confers a +4 enhancement bonus and +6 in flexible bonuses- by choosing the appropriate bane and/or alignment effects at the time of casting the enhancement bonus will be +6 or higher, and able to penetrate epic DR.

I think these are reasonable low-epic spells. YMMV

[edit]I am rethinking whether the base duration of the fortify seed should be 20 minutes or 200 minutes. See the posts around 150 or so. I am also thinking that wall of stone and wall of thorns could be incorporated into the seed- conjure should be usable for filling in pits and such.
 
Last edited:

I've noticed an anomaly in the general factors. A seed can be turned into range personal at a cost of +0, then turned into a 20 ft. radius centered on you at a cost of +15. This can be useful in buffing your whole party...Thing is, the general factor for adding an extra target is +4 USP. One extra target for +4, two extra targets for +8, three extra targets for +12 USP, and dozens (or hundreds) more for +15? That's an awfully big jump. I think that factor needs tighter scrutiny.

The factors for converting targeted spells to area spells will always be problematic: the issue lies with the scaling effects of individual seeds, rather than the factors per se - although the personal --> radius snag has occurred to me before. This is one of the knottiest problems to address, and is responsible for my conservatism in seed progressions more than anything else: i.e. what will the spell look like when it is converted to an area effect? I wasn't joking when I wrote about equipping an army with +10 swords.

Language is the problem - i.e. what is a legitimate 'target' which can be converted to an area. I think the answer is actually to address this seed by seed: something I began, but ultimately became frustrated with. With, say, the destroy seed, what happens when you convert it to an area effect?

1) All creatures are disintegrated
2) All matter within the area of effect is disintegrated i.e. every 10-ft cube

Ideally, each seed needs an "Applying Factors to (X)" section in its description which clearly demarcates the limits of the seed when various factors are applied to it. This needs to proceed on a case-by-case basis.
 

You can fix the "+10 weapons for your whole army" issue by turning the effect into a variant on an Emanation - that is, sure, it will make all the weapons in the area +10 weapons... but only so long as they remain in the area. If you want to equip an army, you'll need to make sure your entire army fits in the area of the spell, and stays in the spell's area for the duration. You can maybe make it a mobile area, but your army is still limited to a formation of some kind, and subject to point-blank anhiliation from area effects.
 

Remove ads

Top