Epic Magic Big Thread

[Sepulchrave II]

Cabals are just too powerful; nowhere else can you get -70 in mitigation factors, not without ruinous cost. But with cabals it is routine;

There needs to be some kind of restriction, I agree. But I love the smoothness of Leadership = Mitigating Factor. Perhaps something as simple as an enforced period of convalescence for the cabal, after the spell is cast: they cannot participate in further rituals until a number of days equal to their contributed mitigating factor has passed.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ok. That makes things a lot clearer. This is a very exciting mechanic, but I'm going to have to think how it meshes up with the straight [seed] + factor business. (aside: I'm trying out this bracket notation for seeds instead of italics, which are for finished spells.)

I was trying to use exponential and ad hoc factors to extend spells way beyond their limit, but the problem is that you can easily end up with a spell a few orders of magnitude too powerful. And the result is indefensible if the ad hoc factors are the bulk of the spell; justifying these factors is purely intuitive, and who can argue with intuition?

But if two or more seeds could both be extrapolated (via exponentials and ad hoc modifiers) to the same effect, you could sort of take their meeting point to be the value of the spell. There would still be cries of arbitrariness, but there should still be an increase in objectivity; you've got different sets of factors to be weighed and compared, and discrepancies are easier to notice.

The aggregate system seems to be understandable in this way. Each of the major component can be considered in turn as a base spell in its own right, and the other components as ad hoc and exponential factors. The aggregate is kind of a consensus of these individual ways of constructing a spell.

For instance, an investigation into [delude] and the shadow conjuration suite of spells might give a USP estimate for making an illusionary castle real. A similar investigation into [conjure] might say how you could make a castle appear out of thin air. Hopefully the two estimates will converge, and this will be the basis for defining Reified Vision; individually the estimates are too tentative to be reliable, but in conjunction they are a lot more solid. The description of the aggregate will indicate which seeds were used as the basis for the extrapolation; if more SP was needed than could be provided by those seeds, they would be included either as flavor appropriate descriptive seeds, or in the form of factors.

As several aggregates are developed using this method, patterns should start to emerge, and things that don't fit (like underpowered or overpowered effects) can be tweaked.

I'm going to try to see if this approach is promising. It would provide a conceptual link from the [seed] + factor approach of the system we've been considering to this point. [seed] + [seed] + factor, where the base seeds have this dual role. Higher numbers of factors would be possible, but I'll start with two. Magical Weather and Reified Vision should both be good candidates for analysis.

I like your afflict - it's tidy; although the clause in 'Conditions' re. the range and limitation seems a bit contrived. But I like the idea of rendering all aspects of a seed into a single SP where practical.

I'm glad you like it; and yeah, that last bit is kinda awkward. Many seeds seem like a Frankenstein's Monster with the base spells kinda stitched together. With work the individual pieces become more homogenous, the seams less obvious. Necessarily this makes the connection with the original base spells more complex.

I think you're on the right track with the aggregates. I have a feeling that aggregates will work to expand the [seed]+factor model to a whole new level.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Thinking about deafness/blindness. Man, that's a nasty spell. 2nd level. 300 ft. V only. Permanent. Technically, even at SP 8 touch range you should be able to do a lot more: touch attack to 300 ft. targeted is +14 factors, somatic is +2.

Say we double the original factor (+8 per sense afflicted), you could still render someone blind, deaf and incapable of smell at SP8 touch with V and S components. Too much?

Edit - using range factors to this extent to extrapolate new SPs is problematic, and skews any sense of proportion. I think we need to reconsider factors for range (amongst other things!).

1) Touch to 75ft. ray at +4 is derived from Reach Spell (CD, p.75). I suppose it should stay.

2) +4 SP toggle for ranged touch <-> targeted is a holdover from the ELH, and might be better reduced to +2; although IME ranged touch attacks always hit at these levels, and the caster will gladly snatch a penalty to the opponent's saving throw.

3) Increase range by 100% at +2 is derived from Enlarge Spell. I'd like an additional factor which simply moves you up the tree; 75 ft. -> 300 ft. -> 1200 ft. I think this should be +4 - there will still be instances where it is beneficial for a spell to utilise a single doubling of range. And I think a metamagic feat which increases the range from medium to long at +2 spell levels (presumably w/ Enlarge Spell as a prereq) would be perfectly reasonable, even underpowered.

My feeling is that when range increases are converted to range decreases with a mitigating factor, they should receive half of the benefit - i.e. to reduce a seed with a range of 1200 ft. to 300 ft. would net you -2 on the SP.

I'm still thinking -4 is too steep as a mitigating factor for duration reduction. Actually, no. [Compel] needs some kind of limiting clause, and that irks me - this is my only real obstacle: I absolutely love the idea of a cheap, effective, swift action 1-round mage armor as an epic spell. But I don't want to reduce the duration of [compel] (say by extending the range); nor do I want to exclude it from having its duration reduced. Nor do I want to change the root spell to something like suggestion, and have a bunch of subseeds based on dominate person and dominate monster.

That said, I think the real problem is that the root spell is 9th level - these are precariously balanced, by any standards. Meh.

Edit: it occurs to me that if the same pattern holds true for duration increases as it does for range increases, a factor which increases the duration by one category should be at +8 if it mitigates at -4. This actually feels about right - increasing duration generally affords much more utility than increasing range: +4 levels of metamagic to change a 20 minute spell to a 20 hour spell. I wouldn't allow this as a factor - for obvious reasons (the 'F' word again) - but as a 'virtual factor' it might be worth considering when retooling seeds.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't want to reduce the duration of [compel]... nor do I want to exclude it from having its duration reduced

You're making me laugh again, Sep. But I emphathize with your frustration.

it occurs to me that if the same pattern holds true for duration increases as it does for range increases, a factor which increases the duration by one category should be at +8 if it mitigates at -4. This actually feels about right - increasing duration generally affords much more utility than increasing range: +4 levels of metamagic to change a 20 minute spell to a 20 hour spell. I wouldn't allow this as a factor - for obvious reasons (the 'F' word again) - but as a 'virtual factor' it might be worth considering when retooling seeds.

The question is figuring out, from the spells in the SRD, which were increased and which were mitigated.

Regarding [compel] - perhaps the root is charm monster, and dominate monster represents an enhancement? The telepathic angle looks to me like a [contact] effect of some sort, albeit heavily limited and mitigated. Maybe dominate monster is an aggregate somehow reduced to valent levels?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

:Regarding [compel] - perhaps the root is charm monster, and dominate monster represents an enhancement? The telepathic angle looks to me like a [contact] effect of some sort, albeit heavily limited and mitigated. Maybe dominate monster is an aggregate somehow reduced to valent levels?

I wonder if this can help us? Sometimes an outside perspective is nice.

Dominate, Psionic
Telepathy (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Level: Telepath 4
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 7

As the dominate person spell, except as noted here.

Augment
You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.

*If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can also affect an animal, fey, giant, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power can also affect an aberration, dragon, elemental, or outsider in addition to the creature types mentioned above.

*For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect an additional target. Any additional target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.

*If you spend 1 additional power point, this power’s duration is 1 hour rather than concentration. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 day rather than concentration. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration is 1 day per manifester level rather than concentration.

*In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, this power’s save DC increases by 1.


Man, they really got it right with psionics, didn't they? I've pretty much avoided going here until now as it opens a whole new can of worms - although the reveal seed drops its range entry for clairaudience/clairvoyance - this is a nod to remote viewing.

Anyway. If dominate monster were a 7th level spell [edit] with 1-round casting time, a medium range and no components, it should have a duration of 1 hr/caster level.

I think that half-in-mitigation and full-as-factor is sound, but only if you use the mitigation values when actually tinkering with the seeds thenselves. You could view the mitigation factor as the 'real' value of the range increment; the wizard contriving the epic spell needs to use metamagic. Imposing one's will upon the fabric of magic is apparently only 50% efficient.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Anyway. If dominate monster were a 7th level spell [edit] with 1-round casting time, a medium range and no components, it should have a duration of 1 hr/caster level.

Let's see if I can follow you. Dominate monster is actually 9th level, 1-round casting time, close range, VS components, 1 day/level duration.

Say you are applying full factors. +4 to increase range from close to medium, +4 to make it still and silent, -8 for reducing duration from days to hours. Net is no change. Half of nothing (the half-in-mitigation rule) is still nothing.

Nope. Not following. I'd like to point out that if you use half-factors to lower the SP of the seed, player's won't be able to replicate dominate monster at USP 22.

This actually feels about right - increasing duration generally affords much more utility than increasing range: +4 levels of metamagic to change a 20 minute spell to a 20 hour spell. I wouldn't allow this as a factor - for obvious reasons (the 'F' word again) - but as a 'virtual factor' it might be worth considering when retooling seeds.

You mean from 20 minutes to 200 minutes, right?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Re: Blindness/Deafness and Bestow Curse

Let's compare the two spells:

• Blindness/deafness: V only, medium range, permanent (D) duration, living target, fort negates, 2 options (flexible), 2nd level
  
• Bestow curse: touch range, permanent duration, creature target, will negates, 3 options (flexible), 4th level (arcane)

If we improve the parameters of bestow curse to those of blindness/deafness we get the following:

• Bestow curse +2 (stilled), +2 (dismissible), Touch to close +8, close to medium +4.
• +16 total, +8 after using the half-in-mitigation and full-as-factor rule for tinkering with seeds.
• USP = 12 (for a 4th level spell) + 8 = 20.

Blindness/deafness would go from USP 8 to USP 12 if the living target restriction were removed (treating it as a -4 minor restriction)- this would also require changing the saving throw type, since most non-living creatures are immune to effects with fortitude saves that don't affect objects. If you considered bestow curse to be a 3rd level spell (as it is on the cleric list) then it would be bit lower than 20- but I think this would be better handled as an area of special clerical expertise.

The gap between USP 12 and USP 20 is difficult to bridge; I'm wondering if, for extrapolation purposes, we should think of blindness/deafness as two levels higher; alternatively, you could decide that a 2nd level blindness/deafness should have the parameters of bestow curse as well as a restriction to living creatures. If you compare greater bestow curse to bestow curse you can see that a -1 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks and skill checks is worth +2 SP. Based on this, the rest kinda falls into line:

Seed: Afflict
Necromancy

Root Spell: Blindness/deafness, bestow curse
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 8 or 16; see text
Components: V,S or V; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch or 300 ft.; see text
Target: Creature touched or one creature; see text
Duration: Permanent or Permanent (D); see text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The afflict seed bestows some negative condition upon the target as determined by the caster at the time of casting. There are two options for determining the base seed's Components, Range, Target and Duration. At a Spellcraft Prerequisite of 8, the caster uses the first option of each pair; at a Spellcraft Prerequisite of 16, the caster uses the second. In either case the caster can choose from one of five effects:

• Afflict one of the target's senses: sight, hearing, smell (includes taste), touch or a special sense that the target possesses. If the target fails its saving throw, the sense selected doesn't function for the spell's duration, with all attendant penalties that apply for losing the specified sense.
  Factor: For each additional sense beyond the first which is affected by this seed, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +8.
  
• Afflict one of the target's ability scores with a –2 penalty.
  Factor: For each additional –1 penalty assessed to the ability score, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1. This seed cannot afflict a character’s ability scores to the point where they reach less than 1.
  Factor: To afflict an additional ability score, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +8.
  
• Afflict the target with a –2 morale penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks and saving throws.
  Factor: For each additional –1 penalty assessed to all four of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
  
• Afflict the target with either a –2 penalty on caster level checks, a –2 penalty to spell resistance, or a –2 penalty to some other aspect of the target which is specified in the development process.
  Factor: For each additional –1 penalty assessed to these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
  
• Afflict the target's capacity to act. Each turn, the subject has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.
  Factor: To reduce the chance of action to 25%, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +8.

You may also invent your own curse using these options as guidelines. The effect of a specialized curse must be specified during spell development.
Factor: If you increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4 then only a wish, miracle or epic spell which uses the [dispel] seed can remove the effects from the target.
Mitigating factor: If you restrict the target to living creatures, reduce the Spellcraft Prerequisite by -4; you may change the saving throw to Fortitude negates.

*****
edit: added mitigating factor
edit2: added "hard to remove" factor, and "afflict additional ability score" factor.
edit3: latest version is in post 204

That global factor is based on using the parameters of bestow curse rather than that of blindness.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Unfortunately, I didn't get to editing the above post. I also drank too much mulled wine yesterday afternoon: my mind may have been somewhat occluded. It looks like I'm trying to develop a logical argument: really I'm just blurting out stuff from my head before I forget it. However:

Anyway. If dominate monster were a 7th level spell [edit] with 1-round casting time, a medium range and no components, it should have a duration of 1 hr/caster level.

This assertion is based on the psionic dominate.

Say you are applying full factors. +4 to increase range from close to medium, +4 to make it still and silent, -8 for reducing duration from days to hours. Net is no change. Half of nothing (the half-in-mitigation rule) is still nothing.

With full factors: +4 to increase range from close to medium, +4 to make it still and silent, -8 for reducing days to hours, -2 for increasing casting time from 1 action to one round. => This should make the above spell 8th level (SP 20).

With half-factors: +2 to increase range from close to medium, +2 to make it still and silent, -4 for reducing days to hours, -1 for increasing casting time to 1 round. => This would make it level 8.5 (SP 21)

The problem is the Save DC. Should a factor be included for that, as well? It's implicit in the way that the psionic seed is configured. -4 from 9th level to 7th level? Obviously, it doesn't matter with an epic spell (which is 10th level anyway), but in terms of disparities between root spells, maybe it should.

If I were to reconfigure factors to make my half-in-mitigation rule work (including DCs), I would change the duration factor from +8 to +4 (which would mean -2 in mitigation as a half-factor); the factor for increasing casting time from 1 action to 1 round is already a half factor (at -2)

You get: +2 to increase range from close to medium, +2 for still and silent, -2 for reducing from days to hours, -2 for increasing casting time, -2 for the DC.

No, that's not it. Alas, I have to go to work. I need to think more about this.

 

[Cheiromancer]

This assertion is based on the psionic dominate.

Ah, that makes more sense!

Let's pretend psionic dominate is a 4th level spell without components. Add full-factors to increase possible targets (+4), duration (+4) and +5 save DC (+10). Total is +18; halve according to the himafaf rule, and the result is an 13th level spell, identical in every way to the 9th level dominate monster except for the range (medium instead of close) and the absence of components. A still (+1 level), silent (+1 level) dominate monster with range bumped up one step (+2 levels) would also be 13th level. In other words, you don't get a different result from psionic dominate than you would with dominate monster

The only thing you might want to do is maybe modify the Spellcraft Prerequisite of [compel] to reflect the 1 round casting time of the base seed- if you do, it would be 24 instead of 22.

On the other hand, suppose you took psionic dominate, increased its targets and duration by himafaf values of +2 and +2, but offset it with reduced range (-2) and two additional components (-2). This would yield a 4th level base spell; USP 12, or USP 14 after accounting for the casting time. Seems suspiciously low to me; I suspect that psionics weren't meant to be mitigated by adding verbal and somatic components; the duration factors (going from concentration to 1 day/level for only +4?) also seem underpriced.

Regarding the proposed -4 factor for reduced duration:
20 days-->20 hours-->200 minutes-->20 minutes-->20 rounds-->1 round (or maybe 2) is 5 steps. If reduced duration was not a preferred mitigation for [compel], then each reduction would be worth -2, or -10 total, exactly enough to balance the +10 for "a suicidal or outright unreasonable" command. It also makes a spell that compares nicely with [slay]; instead of a SP of 18 to kill an opponent outright, you have a SP of 24 which makes them commit suicide (or do something else equally disastrous). The increased flexibility in exactly which outrageous action they'll do would be worth about a +6 SP; it's also balanced a bit by the fact that they might survive the coup-de-grace on themselves (or that someone else will interfere with the auto-coup-de-grace and prevent it from working).

Spells that are safe for use at long periods might have their durations increased by one or more steps- if players wish to use the reduced duration mitigating factor, they could do so. A few seeds where reduced duration is problematic (like [compel]) could have indicators that reduced duration is not a preferred mitigation, and so each step only reduces the SP by -2. I'd say the default would be that reduced duration is a preferred mitigation. Just note the few exceptions.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Couple of thoughts since my last post:

• My calculations indicate that Reified Vision is SP 60. Does that sound about right? [edit] I need to think about this some more.
• Factors that move things up (or down) a category are varieties of exponential factors; we were wary of them before.
• I don't know if the players should be allowed to use the enhancing version of these factors. That would allow them to increase the power of the spells... well, exponentially.
• If we allow it, then in our notation both the full and the mitigating factor should be written together. The duration factor would be +8/-4, for instance, and the range factor would be +4/-2. The range factor might only work to long range- should we extend the progression? Exponentially extended duration might be capped at days- should this be extended out to weeks, months and years? Decades, centuries and millenia?
• But I'm thinking that (with maybe a few exceptions) exponential increases should be used only in figuring out the seeds and aggregates- we make them as long in range, duration and area as we think is prudent. Then players use either exponential mitigating factors to ratchet it back from this, or linear enhancements to go a little further. For example, it would be -4 to reduce duration a step (usually a factor of 10), or +2 to increase it by 100% of base.
• All mitigating factors, including exponential ones, may be preferred (available at full value) or not (available at half value). For example, my previous post suggests that reduced duration should not be preferred by [compel].
• Aggregates seem to be a level above and beyond the epic spellcasting we've been considering. I wonder if it should require a feat to unlock the secrets of multi-seed magic, corresponding to Epic Spell-casting that unlocks the seed + factor system.