Epic Magic Big Thread

[Cheiromancer]

I see we were simul-posting there!

It seems that the issue here is primarily one of preventing massive overspecialization via an epic spellcasting route, and reducing the possible overinvestment in Epic Spellcasting and feats which apply to it.

That seems a good summary of the verbose second half of my previous post.

This has been touched on before, but a quick fix to the current issues with the system might also be:

1) Give the Epic Spellcasting feat the [Epic Magic] tag. Give all feats which pertain to it the [Epic Magic] tag.

2) Feats which have the [Epic Magic] tag can only be taken as general feats, never as bonus feats gained by virtue of a character's class. This will slow progression by 50%, and force more conventional feat choices as well.

It seems odd that something so quintessentially wizardly as epic magic would be ineligible for bonus wizard feats. But I'm afraid it might be necessary to do something along those lines.

I'm not sure about the knots which your system proposes via 6+SP/6

What knots are those? It says that a wizard who spends one feat to get an epic spell slot is limited to a spell whose SP is 29 or lower. If he wants a better spell, he has to get another feat. When the character is level 27, it should occur to him to get another spell such spell slot. That seems reasonable enough.

[sblock=Unless... Is it the save DCs?]What I think is problematic about the proposal is not the formula, but the save DCs that result from pouring everything into ISC, and then basing spell DC on the level of the spell slot. A level 50 wizard with a 50 intelligence can get a level 29 spell if he spends all 20 epic feats on ISC. That spell will have a save DC of 39+20 = 59. Which is a bit high.

Supposing that ISC can only be purchased with general feats, then he could get level 19 spells at level 50 (save DC 49) which is a lot more reasonable. Conventional casters would mostly be getting IM, so they wouldn't much care. As much as it pains me to admit it (ISC is very wizardly and should qualify for bonus feats) all the alternatives seem worse.

I.e. you could bring back the higher ability prerequisite to use high level slots; the wizard would just barely be able to cast a level 20 spell if he has a 50 Intelligence. This would have a similar effect as the first proposal, except you might see 50th level characters with a 60 intelligence running around, and save DCs of 65+. Or you could just revert to the rule that the base DC is a flat 20. Which is kinda boring, but doable. While I can understand a metamagicked spell not increasing its DC, it seems that a spell that is "really" level 13 should have a base DC of 23, not 20.

What you do depends on the conclusion of the whole equipment/hit points/save DCs/Spell DCs discussion, which we were going to split off in another thread. So I'll hide this in a spoiler block. [/sblock]

3) Allow Improved Metamagic to offer a -2 mitigating factor to epic spells per feat. I agree Improved Metamagic should synergize with both conventional and epic magic.

I was wondering if you'd agree with that.

With two level-dependent functions removed from the metamagic equation, this actually works pretty well. The problem is gauging things without these clear-cut functions.

I suppose if we have rules that cover these cases well, we just apply the rules to other spells similarly, and hope for the best.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm thinking there needs to be a limit on Improved Spell Capacity. How about revising the original feat to provide a benefit to classes whose highest spell level is less than 9, and then revise ISC as follows:

Improved Spell Capacity*

Prerequisites: Ability to cast 9th level spells, Spellcraft: 24 ranks.
Benefit: When you select this feat, you gain one spell slot per day of any level up to one level higher than the highest-level spell you can already cast in a particular class. You must use the spell slot as a member of the class in which you can already cast 9th level spells. You must still have the requisite ability score (10 + spell level) in order to cast any spell stored in this slot. If you have a high enough ability modifier to gain one or more bonus spells for this spell level, you also gain the bonus spells for this spell level.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat the Spellcraft Prerequisite increases by 3 ranks.

It would still be a wizard bonus feat, but players couldn't spend all their feats on it. A limit could be imposed by making ISC a general feat, but this version allows more flexible character development; if you don't take it at level 21, you could make it up at level 23 and 24.

...a swift, stilled, silent 25d6 fireball should be balanced as a 9th-level spell.

Let's see, pure metamagic: 3rd level base + 4 quickened + 1 still + 1 silent + 6 (Enhanced 1.5 times) + 6 Heightened = 21st level (!). Or +36 SP worth of feats, at 6 SP per level is +6 levels or 9th level total. The SP/6 part of the formula seems to work well.

 

[jmucchiello]

Are you guys going to write this up for sale?

I propose that we eliminate Epic Spellcasting and just use Improved Spell Capacity instead.

I'll go you one better. Use ISC and just create your own 10+ level spells. Dump the seeds, dump the factors. D&D has survived for 30+ years without having a balanced spell system. Why bother trying to manufacture one when it will never satisfy everyone?

I'm in the middle of writing a PDF called Alternative Epic Spellcasting and it is based on there existing 10+ level spells. I have over 30 spells (none of them based on the ELH spells). In the system there is a minimum level requirement to put an xth level spell into an x level spell slot so degenerate builds allowing (for example) 5 ISC feats before level 25 still cannot cast 14th level spells immediately. The formula is spell level * 4 - 20. So no one below 36th level can cast a 14th level spell.

With that control in place, you can take a spell effect and give it a proper level by answering the question "At what spellcaster level is this spell balanced against other spells?" Thus, when I need to pick monsters for the inevitable Monster Summoning XIV. I know the monsters on the list should be appropriate for 36th level play.

Other things that I think make it more D&Dish than the current system:

The spells improve with caster level. Close range at 36th level is 115 feet. The fact that the existing epic system cuts it off at 75 was always a little annoying to me. You can create xd6 spells that a worth casting at 30th level and at 50th level.

Metamagic feats still work. More importantly, investment in metamagic feats remains viable.

A spell that grants +10 or more to an ability score become less likely to off-balance the game since you would not allow such a spell to be below around 13th level (requiring a 32nd level spell caster) and, like the 2nd level animal spells, the duration would be much shorter. Enhancers in the +40 range become obviously broken based on the magic items.

Food for thought.

BTW, the fix you need for saving throws, BAB etc, is the same fix the whole system needs for saving throws. Monsters in the ELH have wicked high saves and their abilities have high save DCs except for their spell like abilities. There is a simple explanation for this: DCs for spells is bunged up. It works from 1-15 level. Beyond that, spells become too easy to save against. I posted about it on my (cobweb infested) website. The short version of that article is to use 10 + spellcast level / 2 + ability mod for spells just like the rest of the system. The hole in this theory is that low level spells become more deadly at high levels. The article above has more depth.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

There are a couple of variant epic spellcasting systems out there that use the spell slots granted by Improved Spellcasting Capacity for epic spellcasting.

One, by Fearno and Mercurio of the Dicefreaks community, doesn't use epic spell seeds, but instead uses the normal 1-9th level spells as the base for building epic spells, and adds the factors and mitigation on top of those. This makes for a huge base from which to create your epic spells... which is good... but it leaves out the kind of specialization that you can get with the seeds, vis a vis the epic spellcasting feats that have been introduced in this thread, which I really dig.

Another, by Kerrick uses seeds, much like those found here and in the ELH, but alters the factors and mitigating factors into a straight up + or - spell level conversion. This system, I think, remains the closest to that found in the ELH, while using spell levels, but lacks granularity.

You might want to try to hunt down those systems (and others) to perhaps mine for ideas or whatnot.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I dig the discussion and thoguht that has gone into this thread and am anxious to see what comes out of it.

Later
silver

 

[Greybar]

Okay, for fun I took a quick stab at an epic spell that replicates that mysterious and unspoken process by which one becomes a lich.

Ascend to Lichdom (Necromancy, Evil)
Seed: Animate Dead
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 26
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 day
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This is for a Necromancer 21, who will be CR25 once he's a lich. The concept being that a mere day-long ritual ends with the caster bringing himself to the knife-point of death, and then rising as a lich. I do handwave the part about whether the spell can complete if he dies, and whether he'll actually only be CR24 because of the level loss. I do charge him +20SP to make it contingent on death, which seems to be a reasonable way to do it. This uses the modified Animate Dead seed discussed early on. Bringing the SP back to 26 was mostly out of cuteness, since we can hope this would-be-lich has a Spellcraft check of +30 or so. It does present the oddity that it would be easier to turn your friend into a lich than to turn yourself into a lich.

Base Spellcraft Prerequite 26 gives CR12
Add 13CRs for +26 (BSP52)
Contingency (upon death) +20 (BSP72)

Casting Time: 1 day (Mitigation -20)
Area of Specialization (Mitigation -5)
Backlash (Equal to Con-1, 12pts) (Mitigation -12)
Range (Touch -> Personal) (Mitigation -2)
Power Components 35,000gp (Mitigation -7)
Total Mitigation: -46

Final Spellcraft: 26

Now, using the 6+SP/6 rule, this would be level 11. Getting it down to level 10 would be pretty easy, since that's just another -2 mitigation. As weird as that might all be, I'm pretty happy with it, since the book merely talks about being able to be a lich at level 17, which would imply a level 9 spell.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

More Random Thoughts

Something has been bugging me about Save DCs and other level-dependent aspects of spells, and I've had trouble putting my finger on it.

I'm thinking about further homogenizing the seed SPs - making them all 24, in fact. Seed parameters would be tweaked using factors (full values) to reflect this: with this much room to play with, I think almost every aspect of every seed could be brought into resonance, minimizing the multiple entries for range, duration etc.

Each subseed would essentially be a 10th-level spell. Base Save DCs (20+ relevant modifier) would be brought into line with level-dependent functions, all of which would be based on 20th caster level with no other limits in place - Cheiromancer's stoneskin application of the [fortify] seed is a good example: it is not limited to 15th level (as stoneskin, but to 20th: hence it absorbs 200 points rather than 150.

An SP 24 [energy] seed should do 20d6 points of damage (1d6 per caster level; 20th level): it should also include the equivalent of 7 levels of metamagic in its parameters: 14 factors separate it from fireball. This is borne out by the fireball/dbf example, and feels right to me. Seeds currently in excess of 24 can simply re-include a power component.

We can also simply drop the line which says 'Spellcraft Prerequisite,' which makes things tidier.

[Afflict]
Necromancy

Root Spells: Blindness/deafness, bestow curse
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 75 ft.
Target: One living creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The [afflict] seed bestows some negative condition upon the target as determined by the caster. The caster can choose from one of four effects:

• Afflict the target's senses, rendering him blind and deaf, and incapable of smell, touch or taste. If the target fails its saving throw, these senses don't function for the spell's duration, with all attendant penalties that apply for losing the specified senses.
  Factor: To develop a spell which afflicts an additional sense (if the target possesses special senses such as blindsense or tremorsense), for each additional sense which is affected by this seed, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +8.
  
• Afflict one of the target's ability scores with a –10 penalty.
  Factor: For each additional –1 penalty assessed to the ability score, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1. This seed cannot afflict a character’s ability scores to the point where they reach less than 1.
  
• Afflict the target with a –6 morale penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks and saving throws.
  Factor: For each additional –1 penalty assessed to all four of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2.
  
• Afflict the target with a –10 penalty on caster level checks, a –10 penalty to spell resistance, or a –10 penalty to some other aspect of the target which is specified in the development process.
  Factor: For each additional –1 penalty assessed to any of these categories, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1

Conditions
If a spell is developed which targets an ability score, that ability may be chosen at the moment of casting.


The above assumes +/-4 exponential range increment factors (touch <-> ray at close <-> target at close <-> target at medium. Additional senses are rated at +8: I rolled taste into smell - denying someone the ability to appreciate cheese is a wicked thing, but not worth +8SP. Blindness/deafness gains a somatic component (-2), and loses its dismissibility(-2) and its medium range (-4). Bestow curse retains its flexibility, increases its range (+8), and its base effects increase by an equivalent of +4.

I'm tired, so I might have screwed up somewhere.


All of this also supports my agenda around descriptive seeds - I want their value to be consistent. I think it should be half of a base or secondary seed, i.e. +12.

/edit: or maybe secondary seeds should be at half value, and descriptive seeds at one third or one quarter. For a long time, I've mused about multiple applications of the same seed receiving a 50% SP discount for the second and subsequent uses. If they are defined as secondary seeds in compound spells - i.e. spells which include more than one seed - then this would work.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

It seems odd that something so quintessentially wizardly as epic magic would be ineligible for bonus wizard feats. But I'm afraid it might be necessary to do something along those lines.

Actually, what I'd love to say is that [Epic Magic] feats can only be gained through bonus feats which epic-level spellcasting classes gain by virtue of their class but it would penalize Druids and exclude a whole bunch of PrCs. Linking it to Spellcraft (like your ISC) might be an answer.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Hey, Sep, great work. Your style is certainly unique, and though a small portion of it would be useful in my campaign I am wondering if you have all this info in one handy document. I'd love to use your approach as the template for epic magic in my homebrew.

frukathka [at] yahoo [dot] com

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Hers's an easy one.


[Destroy]
Transmutation

Root Spell: Disintegrate
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 1200 ft.
Target: One creature, or a 10ft. cube of nonliving matter
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

A spell develped with this seed deals 40d6 points of damage to the target. The damage is of no particular type or energy. The target is entitled to a saving throw: if the save is successful, it instead taked 5d6 points of damage. If the target is reduced to –10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. Up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter is affected, so a spell using the [destroy] seed destroys only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The [destroy] seed affects even magical matter, energy fields, and force effects that are normally only affected by the disintegrate spell. Such effects are automatically destroyed. Unattended magic items are entitled to a saving throw to negate the effect.
Factor: For each additional 2d6 points of damage dealt on a failed save, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +1.
Special: Epic spells using the [ward] seed may also be destroyed, though the caster must succeed at an opposed caster level check against the other spellcaster to bring down a [ward] spell.


Notes: changed ray to target, increased range by one category.

 

[Greybar]

General mitigation:
Okay, my first thought to make an example for destroy would be to create Touch of Dust which has a higher damage rating but only a tange of 'touch', but there isn't a mitigation factor for that listed.

Destroy-specific:
Should there be a way to increase the damage taken on successful saves?