Epic Magic Big Thread

It was down to CR 6 as you posted. Actually, I'm tempted to bring the CR even lower - if gpa nets you a CR 15 on average, and you do consider the looseness 'sweeping flexibility' then the CR should be 4.

Edit: I think CR 4 is OK, if extended casting time and rituals are preferred mitigating factors. Reduce the range to 75 ft. (+2CR), increase the casting time to 1 hour (+4 CR), limit the spell to a specific creature (+5CR); gain -40 mitigation from your XP burn, power components and and cabal (+20 CR); I think we should assume the clause for 'unique being' should remain (+10 SP/ - 5CR).

This puts a custom-designed spell to call a CR 30 demon prince within reach of a small cabal of high-level casters led by a Wiz 30, or within grasp of a single caster prepared to burn 10,000 XP - if burn is limited to 250XP/level, he'd have to be 40th-level anyway.

/Edit: although XP burn isn't preferred for [call]. I'm sure some combination would fit.
 
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I think call Graz'zt has to be a compound spell incorporating the [compel] seed. [Compel] is a secondary seed (+12 SP). It would look like this:

Call Graz'zt
Conjuration [Calling] [Mind-Affecting]


Spellcraft Prerequisite: 28 (USP 98)
Components: V, S, M, Ritual, Power Components, XP
Casting Time: 1 day
Range: 75-ft.
Effect: One called demon prince (Graz'zt)
Duration: Instantaneous and permanent; see text.
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: Seeds: [Call](B) (+24SP), [compel](S) (+12SP). Factors: increase target CR by +26 (+52 SP), extend spell to unique entity (+10SP). Mitigating factors: reduce range to 75 ft. (-4 SP), [call] affects only 1 type of creature (-10SP), 50,000gp power components (-10SP), extend casting time to 1 day (-10SP), major limitation in compulsion (target merely remains quiescent if undisturbed) (-6SP), cabal mitigation (-30).

Graz'zt is called and confined in a state of permanent quiescence.

Permanency Cost: 24,500 xp.

Just achievable by a 25th-level caster and his flunkies. Until one of them busts up the party after 55 years.
 

Compel is a base 20 days, isn't it? I'm thinking that without the major limitation in compulsion you could have Graz'zt do your bidding for almost 3 weeks. For only 6 SP higher.

Is the "[call] affects only 1 type of creature (-10SP)" the restriction to Graz'zt? If you dropped this, you could bind other unique demonic entities?

A feat devoted to binding and compeling unique fiends, a King Solomon's Seal kind of feat; what kind of mitigating bonus could it provide? You mention that a very specific feat could provide up to -30 in mitigating bonuses. Helping call and compel unique evil outsiders seems pretty specific to me.

How would you design such a thing?
 

I wonder if [Compel] needs its range increased by two increments(+4) and it casting time reduced to 1-action (+2); its duration should be reduced by 2 categories to 200 minutes (-4): this fits perfecty for an SP 24. On one hand, it would nerf the seed because of the hit to duration; on the other, a permanency would only cost 6000 XP - and it's not like its effect scales with the CR of the target: your SP 24 spell is likely to remain reasonably useful for your epic career, assuming your Save DCs can keep pace.

That said, I'm not wedded to keeping secondary seeds at SP12: I'd considered SP 18 (with descriptive seeds at SP 12; or SP 16 (with descriptive seeds at SP 8) instead.

Is the "[call] affects only 1 type of creature (-10SP)" the restriction to Graz'zt? If you dropped this, you could bind other unique demonic entities?

Sure, why not? The seed is still pretty unpolished: no reference to defeating protections, either. If you think summoning unique entities should carry a higher penalty, then you might have a point. If you think that ('remains quiescent') should carry a -10 mitigating factor, you might be right there, too: we're in the process of defining the value of these variables.

A feat devoted to binding and compeling unique fiends, a King Solomon's Seal kind of feat; what kind of mitigating bonus could it provide? You mention that a very specific feat could provide up to -30 in mitigating bonuses. Helping call and compel unique evil outsiders seems pretty specific to me.

This is a great idea. Some kind of goetic mastery feat. The prerequisites are a little stiff, but they should be: its cool factor alone should be worth it. I think it would be nice as a sorcerer/wizard feat. Total mitigation is a whopping -40; but it's only available at level 30 and requires another prerequisite epic feat. Too much? Maybe.

KING SOLOMON'S SEAL [Epic][Epic Magic]
You can coerce fiendish nobility into service.
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Focus (Conjuration), Knowledge (arcana) 33 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 33 ranks, Spellcraft 33 ranks, able to cast greater planar binding as an arcane spell.
Benefits: When you develop a spell incorporating the [call] and [compel] seeds which is aimed specifically at calling and exacting service from fiendish nobility (such as demon princes or dukes of hell), you do not have to pay the usual cost associated with calling unique entities. Furthermore, the target creature makes any saving throw or spell resistance check against a spell developed this way with a -10 penalty.

A USP 90-something spell would need 50-55 points of direct mitigation, so it's still far less than routine casting: chances of success would be almost guaranteed against all but the top fiends, though. A BoVD Asmodeus (SR 45; Will +35 - assuming unholy aura is up) would only make his save on a 12 or more (wiz 30; Int 36; ESF at +4DC) and his SR would almost certainly fail (Spell Penetration or maybe GSP would be likely in a caster going this route, too).

If you wanted a feat which would bring down the SP across the board, you could drop the penalty to the Save and SR, and instead have a clause which 'reduces a target's effective CR by 10 points for the purposes of the spell' - this would mean a -30 total mitigating factor, but its utility would be greater. It would trim the extra mitigating factors down to 30-35: a lone caster in a month-long rite (-15) could hit this with 100,000gp power components (-10, bonus squared) and an unpleasant dose of backlash and XP burn (neither preferred). Target would have a much better chance of resisting, though - given the chance of failure, it probably wouldn't be worth it. I think these kind of spells are custom-made for cabals.
 
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I'm kinda groping for an idea of what an appropriate level of power would be. I keep coming back to the notion that what is very difficult at level X should be fairly straightforward at level 2X, and easy at level 3X or 4X. Or what is straightforward to accomplish with a creature of CR Y should be very difficult to accomplish on a creature of CR 2Y and impossible with a creature of CR 4Y.

So an 17th level caster might find it quite an undertaking to call a CR 20 balor and securely bind it; the same degree of difficulty and uncertainty should beset a 25th level caster who wishes to similarly constrain a CR 30 demon prince. But at level 34 the mage might find a balor to be a useful servant and compactee (though one that needs to be watched carefully); a level 50 wizard may find the demon prince a similarly useful, albeit dangerous, underling.

This raises the question as to what feats and equipment one should posit for very high level wizards. For wealth I rely on Upper_Krust's cubic wealth formula; gp is level cubed times 100. For feats I am thinking mostly Epic Spellcasting and Automatic Metamagic Capacity, with a few other feats. A ratio of 1:3:1, perhaps. Maybe 1:4:2, maybe something else. The other feats are anything from leadership to item creation to specialized feats that may be (but are probably not) relevant to the task at hand. Self-Incarnation and Dream Walking for a Fillein type, perhaps; neat, but not relevant to bindng demon princes. A character's interests and focus will move on, anyway; after the current BBEG is soundly defeated, an entirely different challenge may await, and one's old specialty may have to be adapted to new exigencies.

I would prefer to start at the top and work down; to figure out if it would be appropriately powered for a character of level N to cast this spell, and then trust that the cost of the mitigating factors will make it appropriately difficult for characters of level N/2.

A level 50 character will have 25 more skill ranks and 16 more feats than a level 25 character. Say he has King Solomon's Seal, 7 AMC feats, 3 more Epic Spellcasting feats, and other feats irrelevant to the undertaking (specialized feats in other areas, perhaps). That's a USP of 77 (53 + 10 KSC + 14 AMC) that he can achieve without mitigation (I'm ignoring the save and SR bonuses for the moment, since they aren't at play in our seed.) His target is around 110, though, since his spell is not restricted to one fiendish noble, and his compel is not so limited (more a charm type effect to speed diplomacy and ensure honest dealing; negotiation and payment is still involved, and the noble probably wouldn't break the deal if the compel were prematurely ended; the [compel] is a convenience, not a necessity). With an hour casting duration, some power components (100 000 gp would not be a major expense at this level) and the aid of a few assistants it should be straightforward.

But there's nothing wrong with this kind of thing going on at 50th level; and so I'd hazard that the spell, heavily mitigated to put it into the hands of a 25th-30th level wizard and his cabal, would also be OK.

[edit]

I'm not a big fan of the whole dominate monster thing. If the number of thralls is limited (you have to fill a cohort slot or something) then that might be one thing, but it seems likely to destabilize a campaign (if your slaves are of a higher CR than their master) and render role-play superfluous. Though a spell that facilitates bargaining with stubborn or hostile fiends would be nice; you'd have to back it up with a fair deal, though, or risk the fiend reneging on their side of it.

I like how Ortwin's servitude played out- maybe make the basis a charm monster effect, or maybe an initial period of domination followed by days of being charmed? Or maybe tie the effect of the spell to its SP; you can't long-term dominate a creature unless the SP of the spell is at least 2 higher than its CR.

Speaking of goetia, I imagine you saw this class I posted some time ago. The flavor text should be familiar:

[sblock= Goetic Magician]
From "The Ethical Use of Arcane Magic: an Oronthonian's Guide," by Deacon Rhodin of Iua.

"Beware the temptations of Goetia, for those who would use diabolism to achieve their foul ends, our Lord has no mercy. Pain and suffering immeasurable shall be their lot, as their souls are condemned to the pit. There they will be immersed in great lakes of boiling lead, until the last days."

Roland’s discourse continues in a similar flowery and rhetorical vein for several pages, admonishing the true believer against using dark magics and citing numerous theologians to back up his point. Further into the chapter, beneath a stylized plate of a wizard fleeing from a horned demon, Roland finally addresses the nature of Goetic magic.

"What is Goetia, you may ask? It is the greatest peril. It is dealing with fiends to achieve your ends, and claiming that your ends are good. Only the purest and most stalwart of souls may endure such vileness without the taint falling upon them. Are you one of these? I doubt it.”

Several magical diagrams follow, accompanied by descriptions of summoning rituals.


A goetic magician is an arcane specialist who follows a strict code of conduct when dealing with fiends.

Hit Dice: d4.

Requirements
To become a goetic magician, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Knowledge (the planes): 6 ranks
Knowledge (religion): 6 ranks
Diplomacy: 6 ranks
Feats: Augment Summoning, Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) or Skill Focus: Knowledge (the Planes), Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spell casting: must be able to cast dimensional anchor, lesser planar binding, summon monster IV (or higher) and four arcane enchantment (compulsion) spells, at least one of which must be of level 4 or higher
Languages: must be able to speak Abyssal and Infernal

Class Skills
The goetic magician’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int). See Chapter Four: Skills in the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Level...BAB...Fort.....Ref….Will... Special.......................Spellcasting
1.........+0.....+0......+0....+2.... fiendish luck, goetia....+1 level of existing spellcasting class
2.........+1.....+0......+0....+3.... unholy bargain............+1 level of existing spellcasting class
3.........+1.....+1......+1....+3.... goetic initiate.............+1 spell power
4.........+2.....+1......+1....+4.... hard bargainer............+1 level of existing spellcasting class
5.........+2.....+1......+1....+4.... the will and the way....+1 level of existing spellcasting class
6.........+3.....+2......+2....+5.... goetic master.............+1 spell power


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the goetic magician prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The goetic magician gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Fiendish Luck (Su): Once per day the goetic magician may reroll one ability or skill check; the better result automatically applies.

Goetia (Ex): The special abilities of the goetic magician class are known collectively as goetia. If a goetic magician uses goetia when summoning or calling a creature, and then instructs that creature to hurt, kill or oppress a non-combatant sentient being of good alignment, future use of goetia will be corrupted. Usually this means that conjured creatures will no longer be completely under the goetic magician’s control.

The degree to which conjured creatures will disobey or try to harm the goetic magician will be similar to the way that the goetic magician abused her powers, but to a greater extent. If the harm is slight and indirect (due to careless instructions, say), conjured monsters will thereafter be unruly, and disobey in minor ways; if the harm is direct and explicitly ordered, they will become completely uncontrolled. A similar corruption of class abilities will occur if the goetic magician fails to fulfill a bargain with a fiend. These penalties can be removed only by fully repairing the harm done (where possible) and making additional reparations (generally three times the value involved in the breach of the code of conduct).

Unholy Bargain (Su): The goetic magician may, in place of any planar binding spell, cast the corresponding planar ally spell instead; the target creature may still be specified by the caster, but is more cooperative. Only evil creatures may be called, and they react to the goetic magician as if she were of similar outlook and ethos.

Goetic Initiate (Su): When a goetic magician of 3rd level or higher casts a summon monster spell, it is treated as the equivalent spell of one level higher for purposes of summoning evil creatures. For example, a goetic magician refers to the summon monster V list for evil outsiders when casting summon monster IV. Furthermore, when casting any planar binding or planar ally spell, she can call an evil creature with 3 HD more than is normally allowed.

+1 Spell Power: This ability increases the goetic magician’s effective caster level by +1 for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only. She does not gain additional spell slots or spells known.

Hard Bargainer: At 4th level the goetic magician can bargain with extraplanar creatures so that the payment for services rendered is only 50% the standard fee.

The Will and the Way (Su): At 5th level the xp costs for any conjuration spell the goetic magician casts are reduced by 50%. When she is otherwise capable of casting 8th level spells, she automatically adds Lesser Gate to her list of spells known. Lesser Gate is an 8th level spell that can only use the “creature calling” function, but which is otherwise identical to Gate.

Goetic Master (Su): As Goetic Initiate, except the goetic magician refers to the summoning list two levels higher than the one for the summon monster spell she is casting. Furthermore, when casting any planar binding or planar ally spell, she can call an evil creature with 6 HD more than is normally allowed.

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Comments:
Fiendish luck is in case you roll a 1 on your charisma check to keep a fiend bound. Planar binding hit dice caps end up being the same as in the old 3.0 rules. Lesser gate is typically achieved about the same time that other spellcasters are able to acquire gate, since their spell advancement is two levels behind.[/sblock]

The class benefits could probably be extended to epic levels, but I wonder if it might be broken. Goetic Master gives a -6 mitigating factor for calling fiends; the Will and the Way allows xp to be a preferred mitigating factor; hard bargainer makes it cheaper to strike bargains. The loss of two levels of non-epic spellcasting, the feat requirements, and the behavior code of goetia- I don't know if it is sufficiently balanced.

I'd appreciate your feedback.
 
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We might need to contrive some factors for [life] and [time]

[Life]
If [life] is turned into a 1200-ft. targeted spell, its SP becomes 34 (18 +4 touch -> 75 ft.; +4 to 1200 ft.; +6 reduce casting time; +2 absorb material component cost).

If the temporal range increment for a potential target is worth +/-2SP, then 20 decades -> 20 years -> 20 months -> 20 days -> 20 hours -> 200 minutes would yield a -10 SP.

Such a [life] seed could resurrect someone who died within the past 200 minutes as a 1-action spell with a range of 1200 ft. It would be pretty simple to add a factor back in which increased the temporal range and allowed the duplication of resurrection proper; this kind of battlefield utility would be nice, and resurrection has some nice perks (a disintegrated target, for one) which raise dead can't address.

It would also be cool if the temporal range could be extended even further: 20 centuries (+12), 20 millennia (+14): maybe at +16, the temporal range could be 'any.' Or maybe at +12 it should be 'any,' and scratch the centuries and milennia. Actually. I favour the second.

As you've pointed out before, true resurrection is a different kettle of fish. At 1200 ft. targeted / 1-action it is an SP 41 spell: +7 SP from resurrection will revive any creature without level loss.

Normally I don't like 7s as factors, but in this case it seems appropriate.


[Time]

Assuming a total range modifier of +10 (personal -> 1200 ft.), this seed has an SP of 32 in its time stop application. If one round of 'virtual time' is worth +2 SP, an SP 24 seed could offer 1 round of virtual time; subsequent virtual rounds could be bought at the cost of +2SP for each round. Just how unbalanced this would be really depends on the GM's interpretation of time stop - I don't know if its necessarily inherently bad. We're in the land of the whacky with time stop anyhow.

The temporal stasis application of [time] at 1200 ft. would be SP 32 - including the absorbed cost of a power component. If we bestow a 10th-level perk upon it - that only wish, miracle or an epic spell incorporating the [heal] seed is effective against it, the SP rises to 36.

I'm tempted to contrive a relationship for duration here: permanent -> 20 decades -> 20 years -> 20 months -> 20 days -> 20 hours -> 200 mins.

An SP24 seed with a 200 minute 'freeze' effect would be kind of cool; you could include factors in the spell's duration to allow the duration to be brought all the way back up to 'permanent.' This 'permanent' wouldn't require the usual XP investment, as it's a function of the seed. It also seems suitable that temporal stasis has its own rules for duration increases.

Just some thoughts.
 

Sep, Cheiromancer have you guys looked at the magic system in Green Ronin's "The Black Company" Source book? From my brief persual, it seems to do a lot of the things that you guys are trying to accomplish with the epic spell system and even has a similar structure.
 

Wow, so much stuff and not enough time to read it all. Keep up the good work folks, the epic magic really needed something done to it to make it more useable.
 

Rackhir said:
Sep, Cheiromancer have you guys looked at the magic system in Green Ronin's "The Black Company" Source book? From my brief persual, it seems to do a lot of the things that you guys are trying to accomplish with the epic spell system and even has a similar structure.
Wouldn't that be funny? If after hundreds of hours of work we decide to throw in the towel and use the Black Company source book instead? :D

I'm not familiar with their work, but I've seen various alternative magic systems around. I am not aware of any that begins with high level magic (10th level spells), and is designed with the needs of 20th to 40th level characters as the primary focus. But that's where the "sweet spot" of this system is supposed to be. I don't think any other d20 magic system has a sweet spot that includes levels 20 to 40; if it did, I'm sure I would have heard about it.
As a philosopher, I feel compelled to point out that this is an argument from ignorance, and is a fallacy. As it is my own argument, I will point its flaws out secretly.
Normally I don't like 7s as factors, but in this case it seems appropriate.

I don't like odd numbered modifiers either. But I kinda think that days => months should be +3, not +2. Although I mostly say this because it makes the numbers in my [life] analysis come out pretty. If you want it to come out pretty, you could say that 20 days => 1 year is +2. Then you could have decades, centuries, etc. at +2 intervals. Although if 20 hours => 20 days doesn't bother me, I don't know why days => months should.

+7 SP from resurrection will revive any creature without level loss.

I stand by my analysis that true resurrection (and other non-epic spells that revivify characters without level loss) should be capped at CR 25, and that to raise higher level characters without level loss should require an epic spell of USP = 2*CR.

You might want to figure out how many hit points a character needs to have before a true resurrection [life] spell is more cost-effective than the heal seed.

It would also be cool if the temporal range could be extended even further: 20 centuries (+12), 20 millennia (+14): maybe at +16, the temporal range could be 'any.' Or maybe at +12 it should be 'any,' and scratch the centuries and milennia. Actually. I favour the second.... I'm tempted to contrive a relationship for duration here: permanent -> 20 decades -> 20 years -> 20 months -> 20 days -> 20 hours -> 200 mins.

Is there any game effect that distinguishes between a duration of 2000 years and permanent? I'd rather keep the distinction; if planes-hopping epic characters find themselves in a Modern setting and want to resurrect a dinosaur, let them pay the extra cost. Presuming, that is, that this isn't a Modern setting where creationism is true and the world is only 6000 years old.

And if you want to have time travel and time scrying, you might not want to conflate 1000s of years with millions or billions of years.

And finally, it allows there to be all kinds of Y2K kinds of plot hooks; cases where "permanent" spells cast by ancient civilizations now fail, because they actually had a 10 000 year duration; given the xp cost of permanent spells, this exploit would be very common.

If one round of 'virtual time' is worth +2 SP, an SP 24 seed could offer 1 round of virtual time; subsequent virtual rounds could be bought at the cost of +2SP for each round. Just how unbalanced this would be really depends on the GM's interpretation of time stop - I don't know if its necessarily inherently bad. We're in the land of the whacky with time stop anyhow.
That first "if" is a big one. Off the top of my head I'd say that an SP 24 seed could offer 4 rounds of virtual time, and each additional round is +6.

An SP24 seed with a 200 minute 'freeze' effect would be kind of cool; you could include factors in the spell's duration to allow the duration to be brought all the way back up to 'permanent.' This 'permanent' wouldn't require the usual XP investment, as it's a function of the seed. It also seems suitable that temporal stasis has its own rules for duration increases.
I second the notion, though I think 'permanent' should mean "a very long time". That'd be +36 for a 1000 years, wouldn't it? I wonder if this could become a secondary seed (with a value of +18) that bestows "permanency" on various effects.

A reversed application would also be a neat way of dispelling all temporary effects; it would reduce all durations by 6 steps, say, for 200 minutes of real time. That would be enough to undo a 1000 year spell; though not immediately.

[sblock=Greybar's Ascent to Lichdom](Necromancy, Evil)
Seed: Animate Dead
Spellcraft Prerequisite: 26
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 day
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This is for a Necromancer 21, who will be CR25 once he's a lich. The concept being that a mere day-long ritual ends with the caster bringing himself to the knife-point of death, and then rising as a lich. I do handwave the part about whether the spell can complete if he dies, and whether he'll actually only be CR24 because of the level loss. I do charge him +20SP to make it contingent on death, which seems to be a reasonable way to do it. This uses the modified Animate Dead seed discussed early on. Bringing the SP back to 26 was mostly out of cuteness, since we can hope this would-be-lich has a Spellcraft check of +30 or so. It does present the oddity that it would be easier to turn your friend into a lich than to turn yourself into a lich.

Base Spellcraft Prerequite 26 gives CR12
Add 13 CRs for +26 (BSP52)
Contingency (upon death) +20 (BSP72)

Casting Time: 1 day (Mitigation -20)
Area of Specialization (Mitigation -5)
Backlash (Equal to Con-1, 12pts) (Mitigation -12)
Range (Touch -> Personal) (Mitigation -2)
Power Components 35,000gp (Mitigation -7)
Total Mitigation: -46

Final Spellcraft: 26[/sblock]
I was thinking about this spell, and I think the spell wouldn't need a Contingency factor. A delay factor would work well; based on delayed blast fireball a +1 SP per round delay seems reasonable. Just coup de grace yourself immediately after casting the spell. (A death spell of some kind might work best, since you could automatically fail the save). A couple of other factors are different (Area of Specialization is now only -2). But the principle holds; it isn't that hard to turn yourself into a lich. Seems a shame to spend all that money to research a spell you'd only use once, though.
 

And finally, it allows there to be all kinds of Y2K kinds of plot hooks; cases where "permanent" spells cast by ancient civilizations now fail, because they actually had a 10 000 year duration; given the xp cost of permanent spells, this exploit would be very common.

I love this.

Seems a shame to spend all that money to research a spell you'd only use once, though.

Well, by the book turning yourself into a lich is expensive, though it would make more sense for that cost to be the power component, perhaps. The cost difference between being able to do this only for yourself, or then for all your lackeys, is one that would naturally draw attention.

I was also mulling that permanently shapechanging yourself is a parallel track. With a flexibility factor built into the design for the final form (and its CR), this could quickly lead to a caster making a spell so that they can boost up their physical self to a new, more powerful form every time they gain more Spellcraft. So let's say you're level 22, shapechange yourself into a CR28 creature (LA6+ChL22), work hard to gain a level and the riches/sacrificial-targets to cast the spell again to get yourself to be a CR30 (LA7+ChLvl23), repeat. Everytime you visit this character, it seems, he is in a new form and eagerly working to research what is next form should be. It is perhaps a more complicated approach to the fortify-seed approach to increasing power, but quickly stepping to a form with a longer lifespan (human -> drow, for instance) has its appeal as well.
 

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