Epic Magic Big Thread

[Cheiromancer]

I still think that the 2*KR meta seed could handle transmorgrifications. [edit] This is not incompatible with it involving an aggregate. I just don't see how aggregates help the analysis any. [/edit]

But first you need to consider one confusing feature of Upper_Krust's challenge rating system, namely the double standard applied to PCs; their KR is their level, but NPCs are given a KR according to their level x 2/3. I think part of it has to do with the fact that NPCs have nowhere near as much treasure as PCs; there is also a disparity caused by the PCs control over a character versus a DM's control over a character. But wealth is about 1/3 of a PCs challenge rating, and you have to take it into account.

Anyway, if you use a monster as a PC, you should use its CR without multiplying by 2/3. I just noticed that Upper_Krust evaluates the lich template as +7.71; That means that a 21st level wizard (KR 21) is becoming a KR 28 creature. (28.71, actually) The 2*KR formula would peg the resulting effect as about SP 57. Although you wouldn't expect the character's wealth to change as a result of the transformation the character will be tougher and able to kill tougher monsters and earn bigger treasures. So I wouldn't discount the KR bonus according the normal formula of KR = CR * 2/3. In this case, KR = CR.

Interestingly enough, this analysis yields a SP of 25 for an 11th level NPC seeking to transform into a lich. (CR 18.71 * 2/3, doubled) This can easily be mitigated into the range of 6th level spell (SP 16). So non-epic transformations into a lich are possible. An 11th level PC would face a base SP of 37, which is a lot more difficult; this merely reinforces the idea that lichdom is not really for PCs. Of course the extension of epic spells into non-epic levels is a theoretical exercise to see what should, or should not, be possible; the characters don't actually use epic spells.

A vampire is +7.075 CR, and a ghost is in the same ball-park (depending on the special abilities). So about the same as a lich.

The worm-that-walks template is +15.72 CR; a 21st level caster would be boosting their KR to 36.72, which should have a cost of about USP 73. That's pretty tough at 21st level. And a 30th level character attempting the change would have to tackle a USP 91 spell. Doable, but very tough. Or he could do the USP 73 spell and lose 9 levels of experience. Ouch!

The pseudonatural template is +21.275, +1.275 for every 4 HD. A 30th level character would become a KR 60.2 level character, and this would be about USP 120. I haven't done the calculations to see what kind of mitigations might apply, but that seems awfully difficult.

So what happens when a 21st level wizard becomes a KR 28 lich? When does he level up? I'd say he gains a level when he has enough xp to get to be a 29th level character; 406 000 xp. Since he only has about 210 000 xp now, it will be a long wait. Or he could sacrifice levels; maybe the 14th level lich was a 21st level epic wizard who sacrificed 7 levels in exchange for immortality?

[edit] While casting an epic spell should give a long term benefit, I don't know if it should give a +7 CR benefit. I think that levels should be sacrificed; maybe half the CR gained? They would still have a sizable xp debt; during this time they would be unable to spend xp. This would limit them in various ways; no limited wishes, no gates, no mitigating epic spells with xp, nothing. I think this would be a lot less unbalancing to the campaign.[/edit]

I don't know about the LA buyback system in Unearthed Arcana. I think it is a patch on the non-epic rules, and ideally shouldn't apply to the epic levels where (except for the *2/3 toggle for PC wealth) we don't need to distinguish ECL and KR.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I don't know if the SPs look about right or not, but this might be a basis to argue with.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Cheiro,

Good points regarding the hodge-podge of spells which some domains display. I wonder if we're reaching some kind of agreement, though - bearing in mind that the main goal here is to nerf the cleric as compared to the wizard in the epic magic arena.

How about this:

• A cleric can use any spell incorporating the [Call] or [Summon] seed without penalty as long as it targets creatures of the cleric's alignment, his deity's alignment, or creatures directly associated with his deity. This allows some latitude: e.g. a CG cleric of Odin (NG) could target Valkyries (LG).
• A cleric who normally channels positive energy to turn undead can use the [Heal] and [Life] seeds without penalty.
• A cleric who normally channels negative energy to rebuke undead can use the [Animate Dead] and [Harrow] seeds without penalty.

I don't include [Afflict] in the [Animate Dead] camp, as it doesn't explicitly use negative energy, although as much could be inferred. If [Afflict] is included, then [Conjure] should probably be extended to the [Heal] camp. This would give free rein wrt. 3 seeds, and conditional usage of 2 more.

/Edit: another triplicity would be [Afflict]-[Harrow]-[Slay]; I don't think a perfect symmetry between negative and positive channeling is possible in any event.

Feats could be used from this baseline to make more seeds available without penalty, whilst incorporating other perks as well.

Btw., I think I'd like to change the name of [Conjure] to [Create]. Do you have any objections to this?

I still think that the 2*KR meta seed could handle transmorgrifications.

I'd assumed as much, via +2SP/CR in [Polymorph].

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think I'd like to change the name of [Conjure] to [Create]. Do you have any objections to this?

I'm fine with that.

I think evil clerics should be able to curse people. If that means that good clerics can create things, that'd be fine with me.

[edit] Afflict-Harrow-Slay is a good triplicity for negtive-energy users; [Animate Dead] could be reachable via a feat. And on the other side would be the Heal-Create-Life triplicity.

I think that if I were playing a good cleric I'd be happy enough with epic spells that heal, raise the dead, and fetch appropriate outsiders.

Eventually I might want to blast evil creatures (undead and evil outsiders especially), but I'd be happy with a feat that either has a particular domain as a prerequisite, or gives extra benefits to a character with the right domains (Good and/or Destruction). This hypothetical seed would give restricted access to [destroy] and/or [energy] and/or [afflict] (depending on how we organize things). Whatever is needed to emulate holy smite on an epic scale.

Hmmm. I like the idea of feats that springboard domains into more effective epic spells. Not that they exactly have particular domains as prerequisites, but they give extra benefits if you have them. I wonder if the benefits should be enumerated according to domain, or according to domain spell. E.g. should it say "if you have the Destruction domain..." or "if you can cast disintegrate as a domain spell"? I'm leaning toward the latter, since the number of domains is open-ended, and could vary from campaign to campaign.

Any thoughts on what the penalty is for spells outside these favored seeds? No access at all, or some kind of capping, or only 3/4 your SP apply, or what?

[edit]

I still think that the 2*KR meta seed could handle transmorgrifications.

I'd assumed as much, via +2SP/CR in [Polymorph]

Hmmm. Adding the secondary and tertiary factors would thus add +24 to my numbers above. That seems too much, given that there are non-epic means whereby characters can become liches and vampires, and thereby boost their CR.[/edit]

 

[The Forsaken One]

Hmmm. I like the idea of feats that springboard domains into more effective epic spells. Not that they exactly have particular domains as prerequisites, but they give extra benefits if you have them. I wonder if the benefits should be enumerated according to domain, or according to domain spell. E.g. should it say "if you have the Destruction domain..." or "if you can cast disintegrate as a domain spell"? I'm leaning toward the latter, since the number of domains is open-ended, and could vary from campaign to campaign.

Perfect . Its pretty unifying with the things presented in mind and feats are always a nice way to solve things. And I'd go with the can cast as domain spell then as per your suggestion since domains are pretty campaign depandant and open ended.

Nice one there.

I'd still shoot on the DR = max SP thingy as well, but perhaps as an optional rule. I really like it and I've used something similar in the past with allowing access to 1st through 9th level spells depending no the power and influence of your deity in a low magic game.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Hmmm. Adding the secondary and tertiary factors would thus add +24 to my numbers above. That seems too much, given that there are non-epic means whereby characters can become liches and vampires, and thereby boost their CR.

[Polymorph] is good for all forms until CR 20; only for each additional +1CR would you add +2 SP. Assuming a modified CR of 36, you'd be paying +32 above the base aggregate cost to get a worm-that-walks - i.e. SP 80; SP 74 if you exclude [Foresee] from the aggregate.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Any thoughts on what the penalty is for spells outside these favored seeds? No access at all, or some kind of capping, or only 3/4 your SP apply, or what?

I'm inclined to make it a flat factor. I'm also inclined to make it pretty steep.

Divine Caster using nonassociated seed.........+20 SP

Heavy mitigation would still bring them within range, but even the basic seed couldn't be used routinely until level 40 or so - feats notwithstanding.

How about [divine] damage with the [Energy] seed? Should that always be associated?

How about [Banish] when it targets creatures of the opposite alignment? It's the natural counterpoint of [Call] and [Summon].

I wonder if feats could be contrived which "tie" specific nonepic spell effects to epic seeds; this would bypass the need to invent new seeds to cover things like holy word or holy aura. Maybe you could append a holy aura to a spell made with the [Fortify Creature] seed or something. The idea of inventing a bunch of 'Domain Seeds' is kind of daunting.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Perfect

Thank-you! I think I'm doing some good work today.

Sep, a few things:

re: Transmorgrification

So your aggregate approach says that a 21st level wizard can make himself into a worm-that-walks at USP 74, and the 2*KR method comes out to USP 73? The closeness of the numbers is gratifiying.

re: Holy Aura

I had to take a *really* generous approach to costing holy aura before I could get it to come out as an 8th level spell:

[sblock=A post hoc rationale showing Holy Aura to be only 8th level]Standard action to cast. V.S. components, and a 500 gp focus. 20 ft. burst centered on you, 1 creature/level, 1 round/level, they all get +4 deflection bonus to AC, a +4 resistance bonus to AC, SR 25 vs evil spells and spells cast by evil creatures, warded against possession and mental influence like protection from evil, and evil creatures who attack a protected creature has to make a fortitude save or be blinded.

Basically it's like two applications of the [fortify] seed, each with the following factors:
*duration reduced 3 steps (hours => 10s => minutes => rounds) for -6;
*touch to personal -2;
*area effect +6;
*selective 1 creature/level in area +6;
(these last two are based on CLW => Mass CLW)
Total: +4

*SR 36 is 24, so SR 25 should be 13; only effective against evil would be maybe a -6 factor; so +7 +4 = 11
* A +12 enhancement bonus to natural armor is 24, and +4 would be 8, +4 would be 12 (resistance bonus instead of enhancement bonus to natural armor... no cost)

Then there's the blindness effect. SP 24 -4 (1 fewer sense afflicted) -8 range (from long to touch), +4 for contingency blindness (on those who strike warded creatures), +4 for unlimited uses (instead of once per protected creature). -6 because the blindness only affects evil attackers. +10 for touch to personal, area effect, selective 1 creature/level (-2 +6+6). Running total is +24. Too high. Suppose the duration of the blindness isn't permanent, but only lasts 1 round/level. Could permanent => 20 rounds/level be a -18 factor? 10,000 years => 1,000 years => 1 century => 10 years => 10 months => 20 days => 20 hours => 200 minutes => 20 minutes => 20 rounds is 9 steps, at -2 per step would be -18. Let's go for it; the cost for the blindness effect is +6 SP.

A Protection from evil is SP 6, make it 2 since only one function of 3 is present; add +10 for duration, area and selective factors (-2 + 6 + 6) (minutes to rounds, touch to personal, area effect, selective targets.) +12 SP.

So I'm getting 4 different spells, with SP costs of 11, 12, 6 and 12. Take one of the +12s as a basis (4th level spell); add the rest (29 SP) at 6 SP per (real) spell level, and you get something just shy of a 9th level spell. Round down, and throw in an expensive focus component to ease your conscience.[/sblock]

Though it seems bogus (and indicates holy aura is almost a 9th level spell), I wonder if this method actually gives the right answer in the general case. If you had 10 effects, each of them SP 6, the Holy Aura argument would say that the conglomeration would be a 10th level spell (1st level spell plus 54 SP at 6 SP/spell level), i.e. SP 24. Likewise for a conglomeration of four SP 12 effects; SP 12 is a 4th level spell, plus 36 SP at 6 SP/spell level is 10. Or two SP 18 effects; SP 18 is a 7th level spell, plus 18 SP at 6 SP/spell level is 10 again.

And permanent effects are really 10,000 years long.

Hmmm. All useful results; though I can't quite get to the aggregate rules from where I am, I feel I am getting closer.

Any thoughts on what the penalty is for spells outside these favored seeds? No access at all, or some kind of capping, or only 3/4 your SP apply, or what?

I'm inclined to make it a flat factor. I'm also inclined to make it pretty steep.

Divine Caster using nonassociated seed.........+20 SP

A feat that benefits a single seed gives about 40 SP worth of benefits, right? So a cleric who takes a feat to "unlock" a seed would get full access plus about 20 SP worth of other benefits? Or about 1/2 what an arcane caster gets when he takes a feat. Or one feat could unlock 2 seeds but do nothing else. Or partial (50%) access to about 4 feats.

Actually, that sounds about right. Although there are lots of seeds, I don't think clerics will ever need to access more than a handful of them. Their initial allotment plus a feat to get another 1 or 2, or selective access to 3 or 4 more. I can't imagine them spending more than 1 or 2 feats to get access to other seeds.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

A feat that benefits a single seed gives about 40 SP worth of benefits, right?

At the very highest. I think if it benefits a niche application of a single seed (e.g. using [Call] to conjure fiendish nobility), it might stretch this high. I think that 30 SP of benefits might be more appropriate for a single seed in general; 20 SP for 2-3 seeds, and 10 SP for 'many' seeds. It's a hard call, and I think a certain level of flexibility is desirable: not all seeds are equal.

Intriguing breakdown of holy aura, although my suggestion to 'tie' spell effects (specifically complex divine effects) to existing seeds is precisely to avoid such headaches. Cheiro, you seem to revel in them, however.

My thoughts regarding holy aura were much simpler; tooling a feat which offered it as an added benefit to a use of the [fortify creature] seed, whilst simultaneously 'unlocking' [fortify creature] for a cleric with the Good domain, and either the Protection or Strength domain. It might look something like this:

SOUL ARMORER [Epic][Epic Magic]
When you cast epic spells which augment a target creature, they are also infused with heavenly power.
Prerequisites: Epic Spellcasting, Spellcraft 30 ranks, Good alignment, ability to cast holy aura as a domain spell and either spell resistance or bull's strength as a domain spell.
Benefit: You always regard [fortify creature] as an associated seed. When you cast an epic spell which uses [fortify creature] as its base seed, you may add an additional holy aura effect to the spell's target or targets. The holy aura is tied to the base seed in all regards, and uses the caster level, Save DC, and duration of the base seed, including any modifications which have been made to these parameters through the use of factors, where appropriate. If the spell which incorporates the [fortify creature] seed is dispelled, the holy aura effect similarly ends.


If one regards this feat as a 'niche' benefit - i.e. worthy of a total of up to 40SP of benefits - then it actually balances on the supposition that holy aura effectively acts in the manner of secondary seed. If holy aura is an SP 20 effect (8th level), with +4SP duration (20 rounds -> 200 minutes) and +10SP in range factors (0 -> 1200 ft.), then as a secondary seed it should be worth +17SP. To offset the nonassociated penalty of [fortify creature] is another +20 SP.

Does this seem reasonable? I don't deny that it's a powerful feat; at the 'top end.' I kind of like it, though.

 

[Rikandur Azebol]

Nice feat, and it's worth it weight ... look at the prerequesites. It is very narrow. IMO it isn't that overpowered. Epic beings tend to laugh off Holy Auras.

 

[The Forsaken One]

Yeah while it simultaneously wtfpwns lower CR things by the bunch as it is designed for imho. I'm charmed by that feat in its simplicity for a complex problem, and it is a nice first example of domain implementation.

Well done.