epic monsters

[S'mon]

Re: High Level Power Scaling

Well, I think I'm going toss out a complete non sequitur here but since Hong's already posted in this threat I suppose I'm okay...

Given the way D&D gauges challenge ratings I assume the designers intended (or recognized) that a character should be able to have a roughly 50% chance of winning against 2 characters of 2 levels below him. How do others feel about this? How many 20th level characters should it take to make an even fight with a 30th level character (if you had your ‘druthers that is)?

Personally I’d like to see the differences at higher levels stretch out a bit; perhaps one 12th level character is a match for 2 Nines, but two 25’s might be a match for one 30 (or perhaps even two 23’s or 24’s). This would make me feel a bit better about epic levels instead of my current concern that a 40th level character simply blows 30th level characters off the scale (for instance, much more so than a 20th level character as compared to a 15th level character).

Upper_Krust's revised CR/ECL system in Asgard 6 addresses this. According to it a level 30 character is CR 25 whereas Level 40 is CR 30, so a level 40 (CR 30) would match 2 Level 36 (each CR 28) or 4 Level 32 (each CR 26). I think this fits with the ELH's power scaling.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Simon already replied to the ECL/CR problems (thanks).

I just finished reading the description of the epic-level handbook, and was wondering: Is anyone else somewhat upset by the concept of uber-epic monsters?

Not unless they have an abundance of monsters that are supposed to co-exist on the Prime Material World and impact the ecology therein (on a daily basis)!?

I mean, having epic-level monsters that are so insanely powerful is kind of upseting because then the Tarrasque seems like a wussy by comparison.

Epic-level monsters should upset you (and campaigns).

And the Tarrasque is supposed to be like the ultimate bad @$$ monster.

...that mortals are aware of.

Just like Solars are meant to be the ultimate force for good...that mortals know of.

Having stuff that can just whipe the floor with it takes some of the fun out of the whole idea of the Tarrasque.

Maybe the Tarrasque in the Monster Manual is just a baby?

 

[LoneWolf23]

And, yeah, I'm not against givin' ol' Terry some levels and stuff, either. Templates are iffy....vampire Terrasque? Eep....

Use Dragon #289's Kaiju Templates...

Terrasque with Energy Resistance, Energy Attacks, and other fun enhancements... WOO!

 

[RingXero]

aah, the tarrasque, lovely creature that.


In a campaign I ran a long time ago in 1e and 2e days, I had the tarrasque be the 'developmentally challenged' sole heir to the tarrasque throne,(in another prime material plane) that was plane shifted away do to inter family conflict upon his birth.

The party disposed of the dreaded Tarrasque through a grand adventure, only to find out many years later their error when mommy and daddy having survived the internal confilict and reclaimed their throne, finally located their long lost son. The rest of the Tarrasque race were fully sentient, psionics and classed as mostly monks (conversion of 1e monk class).

which led to grand adventures which in turn led to the end of the world (due to party infighting).

I have been tempted to rewrite the darn race now that the ELH is coming out, as they will most likely no longer be overkill.


RX

 

[Al]

Actually, for top-level PCs, the tarrasque is fairly easy to slaughter. It can't touch flying PCs and they simply bombard it with spells and arrows. Its AC is relatively modest and a top-level archer could probably take it singlehanded if he had Wings of Flying. I actually did put it against my top-level PCs in my last campaign as part of a series of top-level trials. They were also stripped of ALL magic items and allowed no preparation time. They butchered it without a single casualty: party level was 17th-19th.

 

[Codragon]

EPIC=less fun?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the point of this thread isn't the history and development of the Tarrasque since 1982. We're going a little off topic here, folks.

The issue at hand is the fact that our favorite, all-star (CR20+) beasties in the MM (and other sources) are all pretty much invalidated by the upcoming EPIC monsters. Yes, I know, now we're gonna have EPIC dragons. Whoopdy-freakin-doo. It all gets kinda lame to me.

PS: I'm not totally against EPIC play, but I'd rather have a 24 page document than a whole ELH. Sort of an expanded version of the FRCS Epic Sidebar.

 

[el-remmen]

The space would have been much better used by including bullywugs

Damn straight. And a good version of bullywugs with a friggin' HOP ATTACK not that bullcrap version that made its way into Monsters of Lame-rune!

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As for epic monsters - Leaving aside all other arguements - would not they be simply world-breaking? I mean, how many uber-powerful monsters could you have running around before the world is just not an inhabitable place?

 

[Wolfspider]

Re: EPIC=less fun?

The issue at hand is the fact that our favorite, all-star (CR20+) beasties in the MM (and other sources) are all pretty much invalidated by the upcoming EPIC monsters. Yes, I know, now we're gonna have EPIC dragons. Whoopdy-freakin-doo. It all gets kinda lame to me.

Invalidated? That seems like a strange term to use. I'm sure there won't be instructions on the first page of the ELH that tell readers to go shred their Monster Manuals.

In any case, an ancient wyrm red dragon with 10 levels of a prestige class is going to still be a worthy foe for epic characters, so I really don't see the point you're trying to make. It's not like the ELH will forbid DMs from including non-epic creatures in their games.

In any case, the Tarrasque was statted long before the Epic rules were conceived. Now that the release of those rules is nigh, perhaps the Tarrasque should be revised (just as the epic heroes of the Forgotten Realms will be revised) to reflect these new concepts.

 

[rounser]

As for epic monsters - Leaving aside all other arguements - would not they be simply world-breaking? I mean, how many uber-powerful monsters could you have running around before the world is just not an inhabitable place?

I don't know, but we can look to Faerun to find out. You may have thought the epic level liches, archmages and great wyrms would have crowded the top of the food chain up enough, but from what I gather, there are now dozens of exceedingly powerful avatars running around the landscape that make those guys look like puppies...

I imagine Cyric's avatar paraphrasing Duck Dodgers:
"Thith planet aint big enough for the fifty of uth!"

 

[BOZ]

I have been tempted to rewrite the darn race now that the ELH is coming out, as they will most likely no longer be overkill.

no longer overkill, i doubt that. they'd just be more manageable this time around.