Epic Podcast - good, bad or indifferent?

[questing gm]

I downloaded it but can't listen to it because of the strange .m4a format. Anyone knows where I can get a player to play it?

 

[James McMurray]

I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but from my experiences running an epic game, here's my take on things.

1) two people created 21st level wizards, and they ended up almost the same, with largely the same encounter powers daily powers. The DM said that he got fed up with seeing the same storm cage being used by both wizards encounter after encounter. This concerns me because at low level it seems that PCs can easily be a bit 'samey', and I had rather hoped that this wouldn't be the case at higher levels. I suppose the issue is that when there is only a relatively few encounter and daily powers even at high level, it becomes harder to differentiate yourselves (especially if some powers stand out as being much better at a given level).

I wouldn't read anything into this. Our game has a Storm Mage, an artificer using Battle Mage becuase there aren't any Artificer PPs, and a player looking at making a Blood Mage.

I can see where there would be a lot of overlap in power selection because there really are "best" choices for most levels of wizard spells, and they get to pick two dailies and utilities per level.

2) At least one of the players said that they used a laptop at the table to keep track of all the powers and how everything factored together. Gah! 3e had got to the stage when I felt I needed a laptop at the table to manage everything; I hoped that 4e would have eliminated that, but perhaps not...

I use a laptop when running, and two players use computers as well. They're usually just for looking up rules or adding XP to an electronic character sheet as soon as it's awarded. The three other players don't use them at all. Nobody uses them to track their powers, those are done with printed sheets or power cards. You can definitely play 4e without anyone in the group owning a computer.

3) The DM said that epic minions just weren't working. They might effectively form a bit of terrain for a round but that is it. This pretty much gels with some of the discussions I've been in here on ENworld, where doubt is cast on the effectiveness of minions from paragon tier upwards in the light of all the 'auto damage' effects which are out there.

Minions blow chunks at epic levels, becomeing effectively free XP if you've got a wizard, cleric, or fighter in the party. Our house rules are:

When a Minion would normally be destroyed, they are instead knocked down. If they take any damage while knocked down, they are destroyed. Otherwise they make a saving throw on their turn. If they fail, they twitch one final time, attack an adjacent target while prone, and they die. If they succeed, they act normally. If an attack that does damage on a miss hits, it destroys the minion., If an attack is a critical hit, it destroys the minion.

They've worked out pretty well so far.

 

[That One Guy]

#1) I'm surprised they did not go Storm and Blood... but I don't think it's too much of a problem.

#2) Laptops are bad for some groups, and for others they're okay. I think item powers will need a lot of writing or an extra sheet of paper or something.

#3) I think minions are a sweet idea, but they do need some fix. The aforementioned damage threshold is one of my favorite minion house rules. I also think that twice damaged minions dying is also a good rule.

I do like that twitching minion final attack idea. Positive points... it makes me want to run or play an epic game. A lot.

 

[James McMurray]

I like the twitching too, and wish I could take credit for it. I swiped it from one of the "minions don't work" threads. It was originally used to make zombies more zombie-ish, but it works well mechanically for all minions (at least at Epic). The flavor of it fits zombies a lot better than it fits troglodytes though. The best part is how easy it is to track. The minion is either fine, laying down on the mat and needs to save, or dead.

My original idea involved pseudo-hit points based on their tier and all sorts of tiny bits that could be forgotten easily. This one works much better.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I'd probably go two directions: allow minions saves to avoid death at Paragon, and a Save with a bonus at Epic and then also mix in normal creatures at much lower level in small amounts with minions for bulk.

 

[Allister]

I used minions as ranged combatants and that solves some of the problems.

By epic level, you have so many AoE powers that if you bunch up the minions, it is effectively free xp.

 

[That One Guy]

I like the twitching too, and wish I could take credit for it. I swiped it from one of the "minions don't work" threads. It was originally used to make zombies more zombie-ish, but it works well mechanically for all minions (at least at Epic). The flavor of it fits zombies a lot better than it fits troglodytes though. The best part is how easy it is to track. The minion is either fine, laying down on the mat and needs to save, or dead.

My original idea involved pseudo-hit points based on their tier and all sorts of tiny bits that could be forgotten easily. This one works much better.

Oh man, that is really zombie-tastic. I like it a lot. I'm now trying to think of alternate minion rules for all levels...

Oh yeah, I forgot the most important part of this whole podcast.
Genasi's pronunciation.

 

[doctorhook]

I consider myself a 4E Fanboy, so it disheartens me to hear of these sorts of problems with my favorite game. Alas, the honeymoon couldn't last forever.

4E will eventually need a revision, as the shine is already wearing off and the flaws in the design are beginning to show. Personally, I welcome the thought of an eventual revision, rebalancing the game elements in the context of the whole, after all the power sources have been released. Then again, I'm the sort of guy who loves updates, too.

Still leagues better than 3.5E was, mind you.

 

[Marshall]

What shine?

While I like the direction that the game is headed in, its patently obvious that we've been sold an Alpha level playtest as a finished product.

Maybe if WotC had decided to go with the game they previewed at GenCon '07 we would have a finished product, but this aint it.

 

[James McMurray]

Finally listened to it. The thing that stood out most to me is that they need to invest in better microphones or tell people to speak up. I couldn't hear anything one of them said without risking blowing out my speakers if anyone else talked. I know he's playing a Daggermaster, but that's about it.

Other than that, it seems like they've had the same general experiences we have. That's good, since it means that (hopefully) future products will fix those issues.