Epic Podcast - good, bad or indifferent?

[Mercule]

I think a minion with 25 resistance would pretty much not be a minion any longer.

No, I really don't see resistance adding much benefit to minions (barring things like fire elemental minions having resistance to fire). Either the resistance is so high it de-minionizes the foe or it's so low that it's irrelevant. There may be a middle zone that'd work, but I don't know that the formula wouldn't kill the ease of play. Maybe level/5, round down.

 

[keterys]

In general, I think a minion should always be dropped by Scorching Burst, as a useful comparison. So, yeah, level resist sounds way too high.

What you kinda want is for 'Int' with no dice to be too low and for 'W' with no addition to be too low. Good luck with that

 

[doctorhook]

In general, I think a minion should always be dropped by Scorching Burst, as a useful comparison. So, yeah, level resist sounds way too high.

What you kinda want is for 'Int' with no dice to be too low and for 'W' with no addition to be too low. Good luck with that

You make a good point.

How about:

• Minions exposed to 'autodamage' effects (taking damage without being subject to an attack roll) get a save to avoid being destroyed by it.
• Also, Minions have 'Resist 5 All' at Heroic tier, 'Resist 10 All' at Paragon tier, and 'Resist 15 All' at Epic tier.

A low damage roll by any Wizard worth playing should still beat 5 with Scorching Burst at 1st level....

As I think about it, I'm not sure a low Scorching Burst damage roll by an average, unoptimized Wizard would beat the Paragon or Epic tier resistances. OTOH, the purpose of this mechanic is to strengthen Minions against trivial damage, so it needs to be high enough that it DOES filter out trivial damage at that level. (Obviously, yes, this mechanic buffs minions, but the real worry is whether or not this functionally nerfs damage-Wizards.)

What about "Resist 4/8/12 All"? (4 at Heroic, 8 at Paragon, 12 at Epic, for those of you who weren't paying attention. ) Paragon tier is where I'm most worried about this mechanic being overpowered.

 

[Mercule]

What you kinda want is for 'Int' with no dice to be too low and for 'W' with no addition to be too low. Good luck with that

This is where we disagree on goals. I tend to agree that INT alone should be too little at epic, if not paragon tier. But, I think that minions, pretty much by definition, need to be dropped by anything that does [w] damage.

A minion that isn't dropped by a basic attack isn't a minion. Most people agree that low level minions work pretty well, so think about how to maintain the feel of that pesky kobold. A wizard may not be as good with a longsword as a fighter, but a 15th level wizard has learned enough tricks that he can one-shot a typical ogre with one.

 

[keterys]

I didn't say W+Str (or Dex), which would include a basic attack.

Just [W]. Like various stances that autokill all minions next to them.

I think you'll also find that an average wizard does more with Int than he does with a longsword, at levels 1 through 20.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Maybe:

Higher tier Minions do not always die from taking damage.
Paragon tier minions may make a save to not die from non-hit or automatic damage sources.
Epic tier minions may make a save to not die from a non-crit hit, and never die from non-hit or automatic damage sources.

Or some varient of that possibly adding 'when not bloodied' or X attack bloodies them instead of killing.

 

[Squire James]

My last experience with minions (2 encounters, each with 6 minions, all dead in before getting to act) leads me to be reluctant to use minions at all. I've never really had problems keeping track of many monsters' HP, so I'm thinking of something like:

1. Start with a "normal" non-minion monster
2. HP 1/4 normal
3. Fixed damage of (ability bonus) +2

They'll probably go down quickly, but it would at least force the wizard/dragonborn/fighter to roll something good to wipe them all out!

 

[Plane Sailing]

After having similar experiences, I think I'm pretty much ditching minions now. I don't find they add to the fun, which is the key issue. If I want extra weaker opponents I might add some standard creatures with one-quarter hit points and see how that goes.

(Yes, I know that four creatures with one quarter hit points do not equal 1 creature with full hit points because they get extra actions. They will go down much quicker than normal though, so I'm going to see how it works out )

 

[MrMyth]

As I think about it, I'm not sure a low Scorching Burst damage roll by an average, unoptimized Wizard would beat the Paragon or Epic tier resistances.

Level 1 Scorching Burst from average (16 Int) wizard: 1d6+3. Average = 6.5; 1/3 chance of not affecting something with Resist 5 All, 1/6 chance of not affecting something with Resist 4 All.

Level 11 Scorching Burst from average (19 Int, +3 Implement) wizard: 1d6+7. Average = 10.5; 1/2 chance of not affecting something with Resist 10 All, 1/6 chance of not affecting something with Resist 8 All.

Level 21 Scorching Burst from average (22 Int, +5 Implement) wizard: 2d6+11. Average = 18; 1/9 chance of not affecting something with Resist 15 All, 0 chance of not affecting something with Resist 12 All.

The Resist 4/8/12 scheme does seem the better fit for stopping small auto-damage (Reaping Strike, Hammer Rhythm, Scimitar Dance, Lightning Weapon, Rod of Reaving, etc) but still letting any genuine attacks do them in.

 

[James McMurray]

4/8/12 makes Cleave useless against minions across a wide range of levels above 11th.