Epic Psionics

[Aurio]

Hey folks,

There's a 17th level psion kineticist in my group, who is soon to become an epic character. This has caused me some problems, as i don't know which spellcasting epic feats i should offer him as manifesting ones, and how to transcribe them. For example, how many more power points should an intensified power cost?
Moreover, i'm worried about him getting too powerful. As i understand it, there is nothing, such as the requirement to take improved spell capacity a hundred times, to stop an epic psion from making a build like :multispell x5 + a couple of improved metamagic (metapsionics in this case) + intensify power which would allow him to cast 5-6 (unresistable due to the high dc) energy missiles for smth like 1500 dmg per round. Moreover that would make spellcasters appear too weak, and i can't even find a reason that would make that *seem* balanced. Spellcasters don't get armor (without arcane spell failure), they have to use somatic, material and verbal components and stuff, and there comes a psion with heavy armor, who can manifest even when tied, gagged and blindfolded, dealing 5 times as much damage as them.
I'm not too worried about him dealing more damage than the fighters, as i somehow take it as a given that a single epic spellcaster (or manifester) can (easily) wipe out an entire party of epic fighters that are not especially prepared for the fight, which seems fair to me, as spellcasters are usually kind of wimps in low to medium level game. However, if you think that's not how things should be i'd like to hear your opinion.

Thanks for your precious time

P.S. I'm more interested in your opinion that in quotes of the srd

 

[Ravellion]

I am actually surprised that you don't think high level psions are insanely powerful already. It's a problem of the power/spell point system, unfortunately: 2 lvl 5 spells (in spell points) make one level 9 spell. Would your wizard take that deal? Yes he would! Your Psion already has that deal available to him. At level 20, he'll be manifesting powers theoretically metamagiced to level 10: A psion has his epic spell slots already hardwired in the class.

I don't know how to fix it either. Level 20+ gaming in 3e does not appeal to me, unfortunately.

Rav

 

[glass]

IIRC, most psionic powers do not have caps in the same way that spells do, so Intensify Power wouldn't seem to do much. I can't remember what other epic metamagic feats there are.

Since they would (presumably) not require you to blow your psionic focus, you might need to tone down the automatic metamagics a little. OTOH, the 3.5 Auto Quicken has been so crippled that there really isn't a lot of toning down you can do.

Maybe, each would allow you to automatically whatever powers up to a certain PP threshold (rising as you took more feats). You could say that each only works while you are psionically focused, but does not expend it.

If you allow Multipower, you could say that you can one extra power for each feat for a single focus
expended.

Just a few thoughts.


glass.

 

[Aurio]

INTENSIFY SPELL [METAMAGIC][EPIC]
Prerequisites: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an intensified spell are maximized, then doubled

I think that's quite useful, with or without damage caps. As for power points/spell slots, my player has NEVER used anything but energy missile , so i don't care about that. Psions are indeed overpowered however, and i balance that out by giving spellcasters overpowered prestige classes and not changing other arcane features into psionic (e.g. no metamagic dorjes, or whatever while there are metamagic rods etc). However, once he reaches epic levels, i don't know how much effect these will have...

P.S. maybe i should have a psion killer assasinate him instead of bothering huh?

 

[Timeboxer]

Well, just... don't transcribe them? Tell him he can have the Epic Feats from XPH 34, and that's it. Is there really a need for more?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

It's nice to have more feats to choose from. After all, there are a grand total of SIX epic psionic feats.

Now, as for feats to choose...I found that a mix of Epic Psionic Focus and Improved Metapsionics worked very nice together.

Each time you take Epic Psionic Focus, you can do another thing when you expend your focus. So, instead of choosing to Empower or Maximize that Energy Missile, you can do both. Or more. It's VERY nice. This should be taken as many times as necessary, up to as many times as you can conceivably expend focus on something for the same power, -1. So, a blaster who had Greater Power Penetration, Greater Psionic Focus, Empower Power, Maximize Power,

Improved Metapsionics also makes metapsionic feats more efficient. One purchase makes Maximize Power (+4 power points) cost as much as Empower Power (+2 pp). That means you can augment your powers even more. Unless you plan on using Unconditional Power (+8 pp) a lot, or come up with additional Epic Metapsionic powers, taking this twice is enough.

One nifty thing with epic levels is that psions, after hitting 21st level, get knowledge of two powers/level, so you can backfill any that you missed. Also, that's a good time to start researching unique powers to get around certain handicaps (like all the good attack powers being stopped cold by a Globe of Invulnerability).

And, in the game I played with an epic psion and epic melee types, I actually did less damage than the melee guy did...but, then again, the melee guy was cheesed all to heck, too.

Brad

 

[Jack Simth]

There's insturctions in the SRD for converting Epic Metamagic Feats:

Translating epic metamagic feats to epic metapsionic feats requires that Spellcraft prerequisites be replaced with Psicraft. It also requires a little math-instead of casting a spell at a higher level, a psionic character pays more power points. For every spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level the metamagic feat requires, the metapsionic feat requires a character to pay a power point cost equal to its standard cost +2. Likewise, when a feat allows a spellcaster to “pay” one less level to use a metamagic feat, the psionic version allows a character to pay 2 power points less for a given metapsionic feat.

So Intensify Spell would burn an extra 14 PP (7 * 2), require: Psicraft 30, Empower Power, Maximize Power. I'd also add using your focus, just because essentially all metapsionic feats do that.

Oh, and Intensify is good for a Psion once the amount of points the Psion can put into the power reaches about 21 - 21d6 averages 73.5; Intensify costs 14, leaving 7 for the power itself; 7(amount of points spent)*6(max on the die roll)*2(doubled after that)=84. In other words, for any epic manifester. 21d4 averages 52.5; again, with 7 spent on the power itself and 14 on Intensify, that makes for 56. Of course, those will resist as 4th level powers, while the straight 21d variety resists as 11th level.

You can likewise replace Master Wand with Master Dojorie, and Master Staff with Master Psicrown.

With the "Automatic X Spell", you can translate them to "Automatic X Power" by the method someone else mentioned - although you need a little math - a level 3 spell translates to 5 pp; 6, 11pp; 9, 17pp; and so on, adding 6 pp per copy of the feat after the first.

 

[Rystil Arden]

There's insturctions in the SRD for converting Epic Metamagic Feats:



So Intensify Spell would burn an extra 14 PP (7 * 2), require: Psicraft 30, Empower Power, Maximize Power. I'd also add using your focus, just because essentially all metapsionic feats do that.

Oh, and Intensify is good for a Psion once the amount of points the Psion can put into the power reaches about 21 - 21d6 averages 73.5; Intensify costs 14, leaving 7 for the power itself; 7(amount of points spent)*6(max on the die roll)*2(doubled after that)=84. In other words, for any epic manifester. 21d4 averages 52.5; again, with 7 spent on the power itself and 14 on Intensify, that makes for 56. Of course, those will resist as 4th level powers, while the straight 21d variety resists as 11th level.

You can likewise replace Master Wand with Master Dojorie, and Master Staff with Master Psicrown.

With the "Automatic X Spell", you can translate them to "Automatic X Power" by the method someone else mentioned - although you need a little math - a level 3 spell translates to 5 pp; 6, 11pp; 9, 17pp; and so on, adding 6 pp per copy of the feat after the first.

Intensify is a bad choice for a psion, though, compared to empower or twin (or better yet, both). Especially when you have Epic Psionic Focus and can shoot off two metapsionic feats with each focus, the restrictiveness of Intensify's exclusivity clause (you can't put any other metapsionics on a power modified by Intensify). The really crazy epic psion level 21 + Overchannel to 24 will Empower+Twin one power with one of their two foci, and use the other one to Quicken+Empower (Quicken+Twin gives equal damage but worse DC). This yields 40d6 + 24d6 = 64d6 damage, or roughly 224. Of course, this blows both Foci, but he can recharge another focus for the next round and be ready to do 40d6 again, roughly 140. Fun stuff

 

[Jack Simth]

Intensify is a bad choice for a psion, though, compared to empower or twin (or better yet, both). Especially when you have Epic Psionic Focus and can shoot off two metapsionic feats with each focus, the restrictiveness of Intensify's exclusivity clause (you can't put any other metapsionics on a power modified by Intensify). The really crazy epic psion level 21 + Overchannel to 24 will Empower+Twin one power with one of their two foci, and use the other one to Quicken+Empower (Quicken+Twin gives equal damage but worse DC). This yields 40d6 + 24d6 = 64d6 damage, or roughly 224. Of course, this blows both Foci, but he can recharge another focus for the next round and be ready to do 40d6 again, roughly 140. Fun stuff

The SRD's version doesn't have the same restriction set - it only prevents things that affect the variable, Numeric aspects - so you could still Enlarge, or Twin, or Quicken, or... the power, as well as Intensifying it.

INTENSIFY SPELL [METAMAGIC][EPIC]
Prerequisites: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an intensified spell are maximized, then doubled. An intensified spell deals twice maximum damage, cures twice the maximum number of hit points, affects twice the maximum number of targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected. An intensified spell uses up a spell slot seven levels higher than the spell’s actual level. A character can’t combine the effects of this feat with any other feat that affects the variable, numeric effects of a spell.

(emphasis added, of course)

 

[Rystil Arden]

The SRD's version doesn't have the same restriction set - it only prevents things that affect the variable, Numeric aspects - so you could still Enlarge, or Twin, or Quicken, or... the power, as well as Intensifying it.
(emphasis added, of course)

That's true, but that still precludes Empowering it (and Empower is one of the best metapsionic feats), and you can get better results without taking the feat until your limit increases by a good amount. And actually, Intensify would be +12 PP now, since the ELH was written before the rule where metapsionics cost focus but two less PP. Intensify isn't really an advantage until you get to a really high PsP limit unless you are using Mind Thrust or Body Adjustment, in which case it can make a bigger difference (if you are using a d4 power, I wouldn't even consider it). This is one of those feats that you don't take until level 30 or 40 or so, when it starts becoming better than the simpler metamagics (make sure to take it by level 40, when it gives you 60 more damage than the next best combo, even on d6 powers, but you'd be crazy to take it as one of your early feats).