[Epic Questions] Help Please? Never run high level game ...
- Thread starter Angelsboi
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Dagger75
Epic Commoner
Here is my take on Epic Level, the game crawled to a near stop and the rules seemed to break down.
-If something requires a skill check Chances are the characters will make it.
-The Combats took FOREVER. We had 1 combat last nearly 4 hours. Mean wishes, miracles, heals, harms, mass heals, destructons, meteor swarm and firestorms out the yin-yang.
-Straight Fighter, Barbarian and basically any melee class will have almost nothing to do unless they have +6 weapon or better. Before the fighter in my last game got a +6 sword it was pitiful DR 30/+6 are very common.
-DM prep time. I spent a week planning 1 encounter most of the time. NPC took a good hour to make and that was pushing it.
-It was fun but we got bored of it pretty quickly. Hope that didn't burst your bubble.
-If something requires a skill check Chances are the characters will make it.
-The Combats took FOREVER. We had 1 combat last nearly 4 hours. Mean wishes, miracles, heals, harms, mass heals, destructons, meteor swarm and firestorms out the yin-yang.
-Straight Fighter, Barbarian and basically any melee class will have almost nothing to do unless they have +6 weapon or better. Before the fighter in my last game got a +6 sword it was pitiful DR 30/+6 are very common.
-DM prep time. I spent a week planning 1 encounter most of the time. NPC took a good hour to make and that was pushing it.
-It was fun but we got bored of it pretty quickly. Hope that didn't burst your bubble.
diaglo
Adventurer
it really depends on the magic in the campaign.
the default setting, go look at the NPC generator in the DMG, basically places a lot of ability enhancing items in the hands of the characters.
many of the monsters are geared for this.
there are so many different directions the campaign can take since the players didn't progress with the characters.
it is one thing to take a character and his party from level 1 to 20, but it is entirely different to just start at lvl 20 with a group.
the group usually lacks strategy or tactics, so they are basically 1st lvl characters with 20th lvl stats.
the default setting, go look at the NPC generator in the DMG, basically places a lot of ability enhancing items in the hands of the characters.
many of the monsters are geared for this.
there are so many different directions the campaign can take since the players didn't progress with the characters.
it is one thing to take a character and his party from level 1 to 20, but it is entirely different to just start at lvl 20 with a group.
the group usually lacks strategy or tactics, so they are basically 1st lvl characters with 20th lvl stats.
sircaren
Explorer
I really have to agree with Dagger75 here. My group tried playing an Epic campaign over the last two months. (they were epic gladiators - that part was a really good time at least) It ended up being rather dismal.
First off, as the DM the prep time was totally unacceptable. A typical combat encounter took 10 hours or so to prep for, and if you like electronic aids - forget it; none of them scale to epic properly.
Second, I must say that the d20 rules really don't scale well at higher levels (this is IMO, I don't want to start a debate here heh). We had to change a lot of spells and skills. Any skill check or save is pretty much going to be a given at epic levels. Any spell that can be saved against, will be; even if it is the wrong save for the class (fort for wizard for example).
A single combat encounter would typically take most of the night, so it was either combat tonight, or just plot. We could never do both, wasn't very fun to run.
So we just switched to a new campaign where the characters are starting off at 0th level, quite the change.
First off, as the DM the prep time was totally unacceptable. A typical combat encounter took 10 hours or so to prep for, and if you like electronic aids - forget it; none of them scale to epic properly.
Second, I must say that the d20 rules really don't scale well at higher levels (this is IMO, I don't want to start a debate here heh). We had to change a lot of spells and skills. Any skill check or save is pretty much going to be a given at epic levels. Any spell that can be saved against, will be; even if it is the wrong save for the class (fort for wizard for example).
A single combat encounter would typically take most of the night, so it was either combat tonight, or just plot. We could never do both, wasn't very fun to run.
So we just switched to a new campaign where the characters are starting off at 0th level, quite the change.
Last edited:
Katerek
Iconic Gnoll
I have taken both approaches.
The few times where I started the PC out with epic levels it was kind of vanilla. They had perfect feat progression and the player's desire to play the character quickly waned. The character had no character.
The other time we started at 1st level and we are still playing. Most of the PCs are now 24th level or so. It goes well. There was a time there where I was having problems challenging the group, but I got used to it. Now I have to make a concious effort not to kill them to easily. Epic levels can get real nasty real quick. We have quite a few home rules that we play with that kind of level things out. These rules come from the WoTC site (Epic Alternatives). We also did away with death from massive damage.
Epic Level is a whole new ball game though. When we finally hit epic, I took the same approach as when the new rules came out and after the initial learning curve everything went really well.
Give it a shot, but be patient.
The few times where I started the PC out with epic levels it was kind of vanilla. They had perfect feat progression and the player's desire to play the character quickly waned. The character had no character.
The other time we started at 1st level and we are still playing. Most of the PCs are now 24th level or so. It goes well. There was a time there where I was having problems challenging the group, but I got used to it. Now I have to make a concious effort not to kill them to easily. Epic levels can get real nasty real quick. We have quite a few home rules that we play with that kind of level things out. These rules come from the WoTC site (Epic Alternatives). We also did away with death from massive damage.
Epic Level is a whole new ball game though. When we finally hit epic, I took the same approach as when the new rules came out and after the initial learning curve everything went really well.
Give it a shot, but be patient.
My advice would be don't do it. At least not unless you've ran at least a couple of high-level games, and you have players who played high level characters before.
I've seen fairly experienced DM's and players who only played in the low to medium levels before waste hours on page-flipping and considering options after making a jump to 10th level... Never mind starting at 20th.
I've seen fairly experienced DM's and players who only played in the low to medium levels before waste hours on page-flipping and considering options after making a jump to 10th level... Never mind starting at 20th.
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
My own opinion is that you should really consider either starting them at a lower level (maybe 15th or 16th so that the fighters still have their 4 attacks, spellcasters have 8th level spells and so forth) and then run it into epic levels? that way the characters will have time to change and become personalities, plus you as the DM get to control the items handed out.
The other sneaky thing you could do is tell them you're starting at 10th, and then when they arrive use the first session to advance them to 20th...
The other sneaky thing you could do is tell them you're starting at 10th, and then when they arrive use the first session to advance them to 20th...
I distinctly remember the mini-campaign my own group played back in 2E, still referred to as "The Munchkin Campaign". We started with 3'750'000 exps, and free reign on items. We had a level 20 arcanist, a level 23 druid or so, a level 28 or so rogue, and a level 23 or so fighter with vorpal weapons and a homebrew cerebral knight (psionic class). As long as the group was roleplaying and hanging out in Sigil it worked pretty well, but combats were ... a wash. To properly challenge such a high level party would have taken too much preparation time to make it worthwile. Anotehr problem was the differing preparation levels among the players. I had my arcanist written out with 20 to 40 pages of background, and went through the spell lists with a fine comb (all supplements I could get my hands on), while the druid player forgot that druids could heal...
I would suggest to start at a medium level and work your way up, possibly accelerate the exp rewards, but to play at least one adventure per level in order to get familiar with the capabilities of the PCs. (And to build up engaging backstories. IME, combat gets dull fast, but plots keep the players coming, but your experience may vary.)
I would suggest to start at a medium level and work your way up, possibly accelerate the exp rewards, but to play at least one adventure per level in order to get familiar with the capabilities of the PCs. (And to build up engaging backstories. IME, combat gets dull fast, but plots keep the players coming, but your experience may vary.)
Angelsboi
First Post
well i run a game on friday nights and they started at 1st level and they are session 7 and about 4th level.
These people play together already and know each other quite well. As far as DM Prep time? I have a part time waiting job and then im a stay at home hubby most of the time so i have plenty of time.
The game will focus more on storytelling and RPing but i want them high enough level so i can do cool things with the story.
And besides, i ran them through a 15th level adventure (Demonblade) yesterday and one of the characters was a fighter/deepwoods sniper with like 7 attacks.
Trust me, it was quite nasty ...
These people play together already and know each other quite well. As far as DM Prep time? I have a part time waiting job and then im a stay at home hubby most of the time so i have plenty of time.
The game will focus more on storytelling and RPing but i want them high enough level so i can do cool things with the story.
And besides, i ran them through a 15th level adventure (Demonblade) yesterday and one of the characters was a fighter/deepwoods sniper with like 7 attacks.
Trust me, it was quite nasty ...
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
Angelsboi said:
Let's see...3 for 15th level, +1 for rapid shot, +1 for bow of speed, +1 (effectively) for a haste...where's the other one?
Although I'm nitpicking, of course.
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