[Epic Questions] Help Please? Never run high level game ...

[ashockney]

Angelsboi, what kind of advice are you looking for?

Specific pitfalls in Epic?

See Shark's "Why don't people play high level" thread which I think is titled something like...castles of crystal...blah, blah, blah...

You'll see some of the big challenges given a treatment, including "where did all these Epic challenges come from?" and "How do I stop a group that can scry, t-port, annihalate...or just meteor swarm x3 or x4 in a round to blast their way through everything?"


Adventure ideas?

Definitely see Piratecat's Story Hour. The bottome line is the more politics the better.

Good modules?

I haven't playtested them to see how they play, but the Dungeon magazine has two or three Epic level modules. That's about it. Not very good support for such an expansive system.

Recommended nerfs?

Multi-shot. Some of the skill abilities are really tough. Spellcraft buff items that add +20 or +30 to spellcraft (create epic spell) checks.

I've thrown in my 2 cents on some of the above, and if you specificy, I'm sure you'll get some great advice.

 

[Angelsboi]

Let's see...3 for 15th level, +1 for rapid shot, +1 for bow of speed, +1 (effectively) for a haste...where's the other one?

Although I'm nitpicking, of course.

Bow of speed. or somethng like that.

 

[Angelsboi]

just the pitfalls and general advice ...

 

[diaglo]

I haven't playtested them to see how they play, but the Dungeon magazine has two or three Epic level modules. That's about it. Not very good support for such an expansive system.

iirc, Demonblade was one of those.

 

[paqman]

My small comments

I have this campaing that we started in 1st edition and got to 2nd with it and now 3rd. The players all started level three 12 years ago. Now they are all averaging level 17 to 19 with each a template or race of ECL 5. One Half Fiend, 2 Vampires and one Irda ogre.
So effectivelly, they are Epic.

Good things.
1 If your characters progressed all the way up to this level, there is nothing that the DM could do for the player to accept to stop playing that game. In other words, your campaing is so popular that it is considered a good point.
2 The continuity and Story line is probably well ingrained in your players and they will enjoy roleplaying in the higher spheres of powers. IMC my players are big movers of the world. Nation ruler, with advisor and head of internal and external security. Yes it is highly political, but we like it extremelly. Also, it permits us to send lower level agents to do mission and actually play the mission ourselves. Very nice mixing of low, mid and high level gaming.

Bad things.
1 As stated above, combats are a mess. The players actually had to fight an outsider demon hunter ( unique Pit fiend with 10 levels of fighter and well equiped in magic items.) The fight took 6 hours.
2 Aside that, nothing else. ( We don't use the high level spells yet BTW and I expect this to be a mess also )

 

[Felon]

Well, first thing you want to do is go to the WotC website and pull up the web enhancement about tweaking Epic-Level Spells. Those rules should have been in the damn book. They will allow players to use Harm and Heal without breaking the game, they provide hard caps for spells that previously did not have a maximum value, and they provide alternatives to "Save or Die" effects.

Now, my experiences with epic-level campaigns has been pretty dull. Rules issues aside, the key element seems to be that the characters need a personal stake in the events around them, as opposed the usual "insert do-gooders here" feel that most adventures often have. It's very easy for epic campaigns to fall into one of two camps: A) despite being epic-level, the DM's approach is to keep the characters manageable by making them feel like insignificant small fry in the whole scope of the multiverse, sticking them with doing the dirty work of more powerful entities, or B) the DM has the characters being so big and bad that they feel there are no challenges left to conquer and no treasures left worth acquiring, and they wind up planting their flag off on some demi-plane.

Both players and DM's have to be able to move away from tangible rewards when they approach epic levels. Money should not be an issue. Magic items can still be impressive, but even most aritifacts can't drasticly improve the lives of people who can casually cast wishes and miracles. Forget phat l3wt; what players need is a sense of their place in the world. Think clout. They need to feel that they have a reputation to preserve, alliances to honor, and enemies waiting in the wings to do them in. A lot of work for the DM you say? No, I'm talking about work for the players. If they don't show up at the table with their own personal agendas to pursue, but rather just sit there staring at you blankly waiting for something to happen, then something's not working. If they're busting into the fortresses of total strangers to encounter some loser lich whose name they can't quite recall, go back to the drawing board.

Pre-epic adventures are usually about preserving the status quoe; epic adventures should be about putting the status quo in one of those paintcan-shaking devices that they have in hardware stores and turning it on full throttle.

 

[paqman]

Very well said Felon, I endorse everything you just said.

In fact, That's all my campaing has been about for the last 5 years. I react ( Or the other DMs reacts, we switch once in a while ) to events my players are initiating. I introduce some outside events (recuring villains, hunter, assassins, good organizations trying to stop my PC villains (they are evil)).

Once in a while, we have some discusssion that lasts a couple of hours, and with these discussions the players usually state their short to long term goals, and THEN, I start preparing for these. So it has all the preparation of a typical low level adventure, that is well thought out and not something on the spur of the moment, but for personal stakes, contrary to local lord stakes, as you mentionned very well.

I think that the success of an Epic level campaing is good cooperation between players and DMs and some maturity (each game must not fall in a Frag fest of low level creatures, or entire session combating epic opponents. I don't say these should never happen, it IS fun to blast thousands of low level creatures once in a while, gives you a sense of great power, but it should further the goals) At this level, think really well of each combat because they are never innitiated out of random encounter or simply for no other reason than to do battle(unless initiated by the players, but even then...). At these levels, the battle are Monstrous, they can raze cities or countrysides. They must always have a good reason to happen, they must further the campaing in some way.

And, for the success, it is important to have a well desinged and
described world(s). With organizations, nations, important Monsters (Dragon organizations, Beholder hives, things like that), important Characters... all the seeds that will give ideas for your player's actions.

Hope this help. This thread is rather interesting.