[Epic] Some strange questions

[Creeperman]

But, all the fighter ever gets if feats. By allowing the fighter to slect epic feat you are taking it out of balance becasue no other class gets epic abilities before 21st class level.

Not strictly true. "10-level" Prestige Classes might qualify at 11th level, and the Epic prestige classes don't even have non-epic components.

As for a Fighter's bonus (epic) feats being equivalent to a Barbarian's class abilities... Well, pretty much, yes. Rage gives you an astounding 42 hit points, and that's only at your first Barbarian level! When you reach 15th level, you can immediately take Mighty Rage to double your rage bonus, skipping Greater Rage entirely. Then build off that to pick up Incite Rage or Chaotic Rage at 18th.

As I said before, the prerequisites are there so you can't immediately pick up the big guns. That Rogue/Barbarian needs to burn some levels to aquire Greater Rage, then he suddenly becomes a monster in the space of three levels. Similarily, the Rogue/Fighter needs to burn some of his bonus feats on non-epic or lesser epic feats in order to build up to the high-powered, earth-shattering stuff.

 

[Crothian]

Not strictly true. "10-level" Prestige Classes might qualify at 11th level, and the Epic prestige classes don't even have non-epic components.

Right, and those are other choices you can make with your character. If you take a reguliar 10 level prestige class you still need to go through 10 levels before gaining bonus epic feats. And the epic prestige classes just gain cool abilities and epic feats. It does seem that the ELH want to push people to those choices good or bad.

As for a Fighter's bonus (epic) feats being equivalent to a Barbarian's class abilities... Well, pretty much, yes. Rage gives you an astounding 42 hit points, and that's only at your first Barbarian level! When you reach 15th level, you can immediately take Mighty Rage to double your rage bonus, skipping Greater Rage entirely. Then build off that to pick up Incite Rage or Chaotic Rage at 18th.

Well, rage is a level based ability so it becomes a bad example. A ranger or a paladin for instance don't get abilities that can look epic.

The key I think is that no matter when you take a core class that the abilities are the same.

 

[bret]

But, all the fighter ever gets if feats. By allowing the fighter to slect epic feat you are taking it out of balance becasue no other class gets epic abilities before 21st class level.

Rogues would, if they wanted them. Same for wizards.

Rogues get special abilities, but can substitute in a normal feat. They get these at 10th, 13th, 16th and 19th.

Wizards get feats every 5 levels.

My understanding is that either of these could take an Epic feat they qualify for instead. There are other requirements that may prevent them from taking many of the feats, but the same can be said of an Epic fighter.

 

[Crothian]

My understanding is that either of these could take an Epic feat they qualify for instead. There are other requirements that may prevent them from taking many of the feats, but the same can be said of an Epic fighter.

That's three classes out of the 11 core classes. And according to the latest Sage advice they can not get epic feats.

 

[bret]

The key I think is that no matter when you take a core class that the abilities are the same.

Wish that were true.

How many attacks per round does the Fighter 15 / Wizard 15 get again? What is their saving bonuses?

Unfortunately, it makes a lot of difference what order you took the classes before gaining Epic levels. Personally, I think this is a flaw in the system.

In any case, I believe the multiclass characters tend to be hurt enough without requiring them to get 20 levels in a class before they can start taking Epic feats as class bonus feats.

 

[kreynolds]

Epic is a type of character, not a class.

Not exactly. Epic is a type of character, this part is true, but Epic Character != Epic Class (did I get the symbol right for "not equal"? I'm not sure.) You can be an epic character without a single epic class to your name, and both aspects of an epic character follow different rules. When your character level hits 21, the rules change. When a class hits 21, or a prestige class hits 11 (or possibly even 6), the rules change yet again. There is a big difference between the two. Epic is indeed a type of class as well.

 

[Caliber]

<= (did I get the symbol right for "not equal"? I'm not sure.)

Looks more like less than or equal to, but I followed your point.

 

[Deset Gled]

Unfortunately, it makes a lot of difference what order you took the classes before gaining Epic levels.

Yeah, I believe this is a really really (really really) big flaw in the epic system. Doubly so, because the core rules try to make multiclassing as equal as possible to straight classes (neither overpowered, as was probably my biggest complaint with 2e, or underpowered).

I think that if my group ever gets to Epic levels (a really big if), I would probably make the attack bonus increase at the same level as the non-epic characters. The ELH basically states that they equal out because the fighter would eventually be able to hit just about anything, while the wizard would be able to hit nothing, but I don't really have a problem with that. Honestly, I don't see why the wizard only falls behind the fighter by ten (not counting other bonuses), and think it makes a lot more sense to have a high level fighter be amazingly better at melee than a wizard.

Admittedly, I think this would eventually start to turn ugly for rogues and monks.

 

[kreynolds]

Looks more like less than or equal to, but I followed your point.

Hehe. Well, that's all I can really hope for. I wonder if the proper expression is !=?

 

[Caliber]

I wonder if the proper expression is !=?

There ya go!