Epic Spell - Greater Miracle

[Brain]

I tried to develop a Greater Miracle spell for my epic cleric, and it was pretty difficult to come up with any sort of guideline for the DC.

I wanted the spell to be able to mimic any 9th level or lower spell (from any class). I didn't even try to build in the other part of miracle with the xp cost and variable effects.

Anybody tried this before or have any advice or guidelines?

 

[DanMcS]

I would just start with a new seed based on Miracle.

Seed: Miracle
(Evocation)
DC: 31
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Minute
Range: As Spell Duplicated
Target, Effect, or Area: As Spell Duplicated
Duration: As Spell Duplicated
Saving Throw: As Spell Duplicated
Spell Resistance: Yes

A miracle can do any of the following things.

* Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
* Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
* Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
* Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 10th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.

To increase the cleric spells duplicable to include 9th level, add +2 to the DC.
To increase the spells of other types castable, add +2 to the DC for each level.

So an Epic Miracle that could duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower would be DC 39, and have a casting time of 1 minute. Mitigate to taste.

I'm not sure how balanced that is in play, because it opens up all kinds of wizard spells and so on, but you're using an epic slot to cast a non-epic spell. Whoopee. Maybe +5 for each non-cleric level castable? Dunno.

That's how I'd start going about it, anyway.

 

[Jack Simth]

I would just start with a new seed based on Miracle.

Seed: Miracle
(Evocation)
DC: 31
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 Minute
Range: As Spell Duplicated
Target, Effect, or Area: As Spell Duplicated
Duration: As Spell Duplicated
Saving Throw: As Spell Duplicated
Spell Resistance: Yes

A miracle can do any of the following things.

* Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
* Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
* Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
* Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 10th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.

To increase the cleric spells duplicable to include 9th level, add +2 to the DC.
To increase the spells of other types castable, add +2 to the DC for each level.

So an Epic Miracle that could duplicate any spell of 9th level or lower would be DC 39, and have a casting time of 1 minute. Mitigate to taste.

I'm not sure how balanced that is in play, because it opens up all kinds of wizard spells and so on, but you're using an epic slot to cast a non-epic spell. Whoopee. Maybe +5 for each non-cleric level castable? Dunno.

That's how I'd start going about it, anyway.

Trivially broken.

Epic Spell Levels: Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

So an Epic Miracle that could duplicate any non-cleric spell of 10th level or lower would be DC 31+2(Cleric-9)+6(Any other type +3 spell levels, to 10th)=39.

 

[CRGreathouse]

So an Epic Miracle that could duplicate any non-cleric spell of 10th level or lower would be DC 31+2(Cleric-9)+6(Any other type +3 spell levels, to 10th)=39.

That is, as you say, trivial. Adding a restriction "no epic spells" is simple.

 

[DanMcS]

Trivially broken.

So an Epic Miracle that could duplicate any non-cleric spell of 10th level or lower would be DC 31+2(Cleric-9)+6(Any other type +3 spell levels, to 10th)=39.

And trivially fixed: limit it to 9th level or lower spells, which is what Brain wanted anyway.

More substantially, is it broken to allow a spellcaster to trade an epic spell for any nonepic spell? I don't really think so. Or if it is, then wish and miracle are bad, too.

I posted the wrong DC earlier, up to 9th level spells of non-cleric types would take the DC to 37. If you want to retain the limitation of miracle, create an epic spell that is DC 35 and allows you to cast up to 9th level spells from your own cleric list, and 8th level spells from any other list. That would be a pretty good spell. DC 37 for 9th and 9th. Also not bad.

 

[Imban]

That's a dodgy interpretation anyway, since epic spells aren't actually 10th-level spells, just treated as them for purposes of spell-level-dependent effects.

This doesn't include being able to cast them, since you can't memorize epic spells in your 10th-level spell slots, so I don't really see you being able to imitate them as they have "no fixed level" for those sorts of effects.

But anyway, since this is a homebrew, you could just specifically say "and no duplicating Epic spells with this, you cad".

((Also, check out the Shadow seed in Lost Empires of Faerun. You can make a spell quite like this using the Shadow seed, if you don't mind it being made out of shadowstuff.))

EDIT: I checked out the Shadow seed myself. It's a _lot_ more difficult to cast the same spell, and you get a Will save to disbelieve in addition to the other effects. An "unlimited Wish" to cast any spell of 9th level or below has a base spellcraft DC of 23 (base) + 14 (duplicate spells from any school) + 10 (duplicate either arcane or divine) + 40 (duplicate any spell of up to 9th level) = 87 before additional factors/mitigating factors are applied.

You seem to not be using the appropriate logic for epic spell seeds. I'd recommend one that had a base DC of 26 (as Limited Wish) but only let you duplicate first-level spells that are either arcane or divine, with an additional +10 to allow for arcane and divine duplication, +7 per level above first, +10 to allow casting of schools you are prohibited in. That'd make a Wish for Anything be a spellcraft DC 26 + 10 + 56 = 92, which is just about in line with how it is better than a Shadow Wish for Anything.

EDIT 2: I also meant to say what that logic seemed to be. Basically, they seem to take the base seed DC from the weakest version of that spell, but the numeric variables start off at the weakest the spell could possibly be and still resemble that sort of spell at all. So a Miracle-ish spell would take the base DC from Limited Wish, but start its power off at "able to duplicate 1st-level spells".

 

[Cheiromancer]

DanMcS's system seems appropriate.

The epic spell system is pretty messed up, but my rule of thumb is that a 9th level spell effect is about DC 30. Being able to emulate any non-epic spell with a DC of about 40 seems reasonable.

I suppose you know this already, but be careful about allowing mitigating factors to bring very powerful effects into the hands of 21st level characters. Also be very careful about allowing custom magic items that provide big boosts to characters' spellcraft scores. Unless your name is Sepulchrave II, you could easily break your game.

If your NPCs need mitigating factors, make them geographic and temporal- a spell that can only be cast at a certain ancient temple and only at a once in a millenium conjunction of planets, say. If magic items provide bonuses, make sure they are at least minor artifacts, and have highly disagreeable side-effects.

 

[Quartz]

Don't forget also that the seed has a casting time of 1 minute. You'll want to decrease that, thus increasing the DC, to make it useful in combat.