Epic Spellcasting

[ichabod]

As for wizard/clerics and caster level, I see that as the price you pay for splitting between divine and arcane. By why not have some feats that allow them to catch up, so they're not irrevocably shafted? So ESS would be highest caster level, plus relevant ability modifier. Then you could have Improved Epic Spellcasting which could be taken multiple times, and would allow you to add X levels from another spell casting class to your ESS.

As for the factors, I'm not opposed to all spells having a 1 minute casting time, but if so the seeds need to take that into account. That is, if the DC for the seed is based on a one round spell, it should cost less than the caster level for that spell level.

I was thinking more:
Free action from 1 action: +4
1 action from 1 round: +2
1 round from 1 minute: +4

But that's in terms of spell levels, shouldn't they all be doubled? That is, it takes two caster levels to get to the next highest spell level. So still would +2 caster levels.

So say you based the fire seed on fireball. That would be a 15 (10 for d20 roll and 5 for caster level for a 3rd level spell). Make it 60 ft. radius would be 27 (+6+6 for double widen), increase damage cap to 30 dice makes it a 52 (4 per five as per DMG p.6). A 30th level caster with a key ability mod of +10 needs a 12 to cast it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Combining seeds in epic spellcasting isn't very subtle. You just glom them together.

For instance, fireball is a third level spell that does 10d6. That's worth 3 ESS. Want 30d6? Add 3 of them together. Glom, gglom, lom. 9 ESS. Double Widen? +3 and +3 spell levels. Glom, glom. 15 ESS.

Casting time. I think that the seed for fireball should take one action to cast- that's what fireball takes, after all. But I don't think that fireball+fireball+fireball+widen+widen should take one action. It takes a sorcerer a bit longer to combine a spell with a feat; epic combinations should be tricky to glom together. I'd say when you have multiple components the casting time is one full round per component, and each +1 ESS reduces the time by 1 round down down to 1 full round, 1 more reduces it to a standard action, and 4 more makes it a quickened action. So that epic fireball needs an extra +5 ESS to make it a standard action to cast. So the final cost to cast a 30d6 fireball with a 60 ft radius as a standard action is 20 ESS.

This corresponds to a 20th level spell, so using spellcraft you'd double, take away 1, and add to a base of 10. So Spellcraft DC = 48 (if you did it that way).

I suspect Empower and Maximize are too efficient at epic levels. I don't think we should include them. And as a rule of thumb I would recommend against allowing a spell to do more damage in a round than the caster has levels. So you'd have to be 30th level to cast a 30d6 epic fireball.

Though backlash damage might allow one to exceed conventional limits....

How about really big spell effects? Like a fireball with a 2 mile radius. I'm going to have to study Rain of Fire more closely, and see if it can be reduced to a 1 round duration...

 

[Trainz]

the final cost to cast a 30d6 fireball with a 60 ft radius as a standard action is 20 ESS.

This corresponds to a 20th level spell, so using spellcraft you'd double, take away 1, and add to a base of 10. So Spellcraft DC = 48 (if you did it that way).

A spellcraft DC 48 can only be achieved by a wizard about level 35. For a 30d6 fireball.

A maximized-empowered fireball is the equivalent of a 30d6 fireball, which can be achieved by a wizard level... 15.

The epic spellcasting system totally fails, and is very complicated for nothing.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

How about really big spell effects? Like a fireball with a 2 mile radius. I'm going to have to study Rain of Fire more closely, and see if it can be reduced to a 1 round duration...

The only realistic way to do 'apocalyptic' spells like this (and I think these could be a whole subcategory of Epic spells) is to use the energy (weather) seed - in fact weather should really just be a seed of its own.

What the weather seed can and cannot be combined with, and at what cost, is crucial to demarcating the boundaries of epic spellcasting power.

I have to say, I'm dubious about the idea of exactly replicating any nonepic spell: I favour the idea of a number of seeds - albeit a larger number than present. I also favour a flat 1-minute casting time, whatever the seed, and preferably a congruence in range, area of effect etc. - simply because when you combine seeds, you then only have a single baseline to work from, rather than 2, 3 or 4 ranges; effects, targets, rays, emanations etc.. This was my original reason for having all seeds with a range of 'personal,' and a duration of either 'instantaneous' or '20 rounds.' Streamlining.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Just a quick comment, I'll try to post more later when I've done a bit more than browsing.

For damage dice, why not making it +X (low amount) for every d6 or what not, up to the caster's current caster level (when he researched the spell), and then making them pay a higher DC for every die after that.

Also, I suggest different backlash damage for the durations. For instance, perhaps -1 DC for every 1d6 of backlash damage for an instantaneous spell, and then -2 DC for every 1d6 of backlash damage for a longer spell.

I would also suggest a limit on how much a spell's base DC can be affected by mitigrating factors, probably limit it to reducing it to half the DC (or maybe more, but other fractions would be harder to calculate)
Example, a spell with a base DC of 50 could only be mitigrated down to 25

I agree on a set casting time for all the seeds, but perhaps make the casting time "stack on" every time you add a seed (before casting time modifications), so a spell that uses 3 seeds would have a base casting time of 3 minutes (assuming 1 minute was the standard).

This can get broken really fast, but perhaps allow people to take non-epic spells known already to them to either combine or use as a base for an epic spell. I did this with my campagin, for instance, one of my villains used a variant of the Maze spell, making it an area of effect spell rather than a singular targetting one-warping the whole group to a sort of private battleground. To make this idea more balanced, change the base non-epic spell's casting time to one minute if it isn't longer.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Example of some spells I made by playing around with the epic spell system and allowing other spells to be used as a base:

Extra note-Also, when using a non-epic spell as a base, I figured out its range, area, duration, etc... as if it was cast by a 20th level caster, before any other modifications.


Etheral Labyrinth
Conjuration (Creation) [Force]
Spellcraft DC: 49
Components: F
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 300 ft.
Area: 4 10-ft. cubes
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Mitigrating Factors-Maze base spell (Base DC 25), Change from Target to Area (+10 DC), Effects Four 10-ft. cubes (+2 DC), No verbal/somatic component (+4 DC), Increase duration by 200% (+4 DC), Increase range by 300% (+6 DC), +25 bonus on caster level checks to beat a foe's dispel check (+50 DC), Burn 2,500 XP (-25), Additional Participants (1 9th spell, -17 DC), Expensive Focus Tie (Ad Hoc -10 DC).

As Maze but it effects an area and the duration to get out is three times as long as long as the target is actively searching for the exit. All targets of this spell are trapped in the same Etheral Labyrinth, grouped together in the same approximate area-and can effect each other normally. This spell is tied to an expensive focus, which must be present during the casting of the spell, and must be a statue of exquisite craftsmanship worth at least 50,000 gold. If this statue is ever destroyed or taken away from the spell's area of effect (centered on the spell's target or area), the spell's effect is canceled.

(Ad Hoc Rule) Mitigrating Factor-Requires an expensive Focus that must be within range when the spell is cast. For spells with durations longer than instantaneous, if this focus is ever destroyed or taken away from the spell's area of effect (centered on the spell's target or area), the spell's effect ends. (-1 DC per 5,000 gold worth of the spell's focus)


Fiend's Seal
Abjuration [Evil]
Spellcraft DC: 50
Components: V, S, M, XP, Fiend
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 75 ft.
Target: One creature
Duration: 20 days
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Mitigrating Factors-Censure of Mesos base spell (Base DC 27), +10 bonus on caster level checks to beat a foe's dispel check (+20 DC), +19 bonus to the spell's DC (+38), Contingent (+25), Fiend component (Ad hoc -5 DC), Burn 5,000 XP (-50), Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-18 DC), Additional Participants (1 9th level slot) (-17).

Material Component: A single diamond of at least 100 gold in value.
XP Cost: 5,000 XP + 100 XP per character level or challenge rating of the creature targeted by the spell.

Censure of Mesos is in RR II, basically restricts the target from casting spells or using supernatural abilities it may possess, the secondary XP cost is from that spell.
I made the Fiend component from the BoVD basically be -5 DC, the caster has to be an evil outsider and it grants the evil modifier to the spelll as well.

 

[Cheiromancer]

The only realistic way to do 'apocalyptic' spells like this (and I think these could be a whole subcategory of Epic spells) is to use the energy (weather) seed - in fact weather should really just be a seed of its own.

What the weather seed can and cannot be combined with, and at what cost, is crucial to demarcating the boundaries of epic spellcasting power.

Absolutely. I found myself wondering why Rain of Fire did 1 point of damage per round. Why not 1/minute? Or 1d6/round? Then I tried to do some calculations based on exposure damage... no luck.

There are apocalyptic type spells in the BoVD and (I think) in the BXD. I wonder if there are some similarities that be can be used to derive epic rules for such things.

I also favour a flat 1-minute casting time, whatever the seed, and preferably a congruence in range, area of effect etc. - simply because when you combine seeds, you then only have a single baseline to work from, rather than 2, 3 or 4 ranges; effects, targets, rays, emanations etc.. This was my original reason for having all seeds with a range of 'personal,' and a duration of either 'instantaneous' or '20 rounds.' Streamlining.

Good point about the base-line.

I'm not sure if "personal" is the right default for range. Besides the weirdness of making slay and raise dead personal, Summon Monster and Planar Binding are big candidates in my mind for potential seeds. Maybe Touch range would be better?

But I like the idea of converting benchmark spells to seeds with common parameters. I think the idea works especially well with casting time: Most spells have a 1 action casting time, so changing to 1 minute weakens all of those spells more or less equally. I thus recommend that spells with 1 action casting times should be preferred when deciding what spells are the benchmark for spell seeds: for example, Vision should be the basis of a divination seed instead of Legend Lore or Identify.

If all similar spells have a longer casting time, the corresponding seed should be increased, perhaps as if the factors were applied in reverse. Since Raise Dead has a 1 minute casting time instead of a 1 action casting time, maybe treat it as a 15th level spell for the purpose of spell seeds (20 spellcraft=10 levels). Actually higher, because of the material component (5000 gp; +2 spell levels? +1?) And applying the appropriate factors to the Raise Dead seed should give about the same answer as if we made a seed from Resurrection or True Resurrection.

Or perhaps raising the dead is something that can be done easily by epic spells, and so we don't apply any of these adjustments. That could work too. Certainly the Life seed in the ELH isn't based on Raise Dead being a 16th level spell!

 

[Trainz]

O.K.

Here's a proposed alternative for Epic spells, totally unrelated to the current ELH rules.

Epic Spellcasting Feat:
Same prereq's as the one from ELH, with different effect: It allows a caster to shape his spells a number of times per day equal to his ranks in the appropriate Knowledge feat divided by 10 (2 times per day for Knowledge Arcana 23). When this feat is taken, one shape is acquired. This feat can be taken multiple times in order to acquire new DIFFERENT shapes.

These shapes can be applied to a metamagicked spell. They do not increase the spell level.

Shapes:

TIME: The duration of the spell is increased by one factor:

1 round ==> 1 minute
1 minute ==> 1 hour
1 hour ==> 1 day
1 round per level ==> 1 minute per level
1 minute per level ==> 1 hour per level
1 hour per level ==> 1 day per level

A spell with a duration shorter than 1 round or longer than 1 hour per level cannot be shaped with TIME.

SPACE: The area of effect is multiplied by 10. A fireball would explode in a 200 ft radius spread.

LIFE: The amount of hit points cured by a spell (cure and heal spells only) is tripled. A mass heal by a 25th level cleric would cure 750 hit points. If this shape is applied to a raise dead or any resurrection spell, up to one creature per 4 divine caster levels can be brought back to life with a single casting of the spell (a 29th level cleric could resurrect 7 creatures).

ARCANE: The spell's saving throw DC is raised by 7, the caster gains a +7 on his roll to bypass spell resistance, and any dispel checks are made with a +7.

ENERGY: If a spell does damage to creatures by rolling some dice with a save for half damage or damage negated, the targets saving throws are automatically failed, their spell resistance is automatically bypassed, and any energy resistance or immunity they may have is supressed for the casting of this single spell.

SHARING: A beneficial spell with a target of personal or creature touched may affect you and one willing creature per caster level within line of sight.

SPEED: You may cast another spell this round.

ENTHROPY: As you cast the spell, magical energies unleashed by the casting gives you temporary hit points equal to your caster level multiplied by 20. These hit points disappear at a rate of 10 per round, and are diminished by any attacks damaging you.

A spell can be modified by more than one shape, but each shape counts as a use.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ethereal Labyrinth has a casting time of 1 minute? That seems long for a combat spell.

Fiend's Seal; do the fiends actually spend xp, or do they have a "cushion"- so much per week/per year?

It seems odd to have such a heavy xp cost and such a light gp cost. I think -1 Spellcraft DC per 1000 gp is about right (or maybe -1 per 2500 gp, cf Mummy Dust in ELH).

 

[ichabod]

A spellcraft DC 48 can only be achieved by a wizard about level 35. For a 30d6 fireball.

A maximized-empowered fireball is the equivalent of a 30d6 fireball, which can be achieved by a wizard level... 15.

The epic spellcasting system totally fails, and is very complicated for nothing.

Well, the spell in question was a 60 foot radius 30d6 fireball. 3rd level spell, maximized (+3) and empowered (+2) and double widened (+6) makes a 14th level spell, which can't be done under the non-epic rules. Even if you did normal spell progression beyond 20th, that would be a 27th level caster. Considering some progressions slow down after 20th level, that might even be 37th level.

Also note that a 35th level wizard has a spellcraft of about 48, which means he can cast the spell automatically. The spell can be achieved 50% of the time by a 25th level wizard.

So it doesn't totally fail, and 60 ft 30d6 fireball isn't really the point of epic spellcasting, it's just an example, so you can't use that to say it's for nothing.