Epic spells and the Epic Caster (unfair balence of power?)

[Tyrrell]

I know that it's been said earlier in the thread but I'd like to point out again that epic spells are not the only way for an high level spell caster to develop.

By judicious use of multi spell, increased spell capacity, and improved metamagic a character can cast 3 twinned meteor swarms per round as a free action. And do it without squandering even a single experience point.

hellball schmellball

edit; and do it at wiz/sor level 30 (given that they have sufficent int/chr for level 11 bonus spells)

 

[Xeriar]

There are advantages that wizards and divine spellcasters have over sorcerers... a divine spellcaster can use Life and Heal seeds, while arcane spellcasters can't, and wizards benefit from being able to use their relevant attribute (intelligence) as the modifier on spellcraft checks to cast epic-level spells. If you use the variant rule that allows a caster to use his relevant attribute on those checks regardless of class, you may have to come up with something to boost wizards up.

[slightly edited for spelling and grammar]

The wizard also has another advantage over the sorcerer - Knowledge: Religion, Nature and Psionics are all class skills for them.

This is particularly rude when combined with Clerics, who also have Knowledge: Arcana. Useful if you want to double-up your slots (and with psion...)

 

[drnuncheon]

This is particularly rude when combined with Clerics, who also have Knowledge: Arcana. Useful if you want to double-up your slots (and with psion...)

Wizards don't get any Epic slots from Knowledge: Religion or Knowledgesionics. The only way you'd get to 'double up' your slots would be to take 21+ levels in Cleric - and even then, your epic divine slots would be separate from your epic arcane slots. (Ref: ELH 55)

J

 

[Chromnos]

A few points about the epic spells:

1: XP is the only way to get a spellcaster to hesitate with creating world-destroying spells. Material costs and rare components can always be gotten far more easily. I remember some heavy munchkining with the 2e high-level rules.

You don't have to munchkin rules. You just make it a story element. Idiot proofing games always makes them less fun because you have to spank the characters to make things work.

I submit that XP is not the only way to get a spell caster to hesitate in creating a world destroying spell.

For example, I'll pose the spell component limitation and use an example in fiction to illustrate.

We'll call the spell "grant dominion over life and death." We'll say that the spell components are Terry Goodkind's three boxes of Orden (in this case, unique magic items) and the book of Shadows. Further, we add the limitation that each box must be arranged in a certain fashion after a very involved incantation and ritual. Further, the correct instructions for the spell's finish (the opening of the right box) are contained within the book. With only the three boxes, the spell can be started, but there is no assurance of proper completion without the book. Of course, proper completion of the spell would grant ultimate power and immortality (control over life and death). Which may prompt someone to take the 1 in 3 chance anyway. So you add another constraint- improper completion would result in either the death of the caster or the death of the world.

Now talk about an epic spell!

But also think a little bit about the hows and whys and who's jealous. If anyone in the campaign actually got all three boxes of Orden almost everyone would be out to stop him (even if he didn't intend to use them). How can you trust anyone with so much power?

The same would be true with any components that, when combined by someone with the power, could destroy the world, himself or make him the lord of all.

Second, components are just an example. Higher power levels raise the stakes but they don't alter the fundamentals of play. If your setting can get trashed by epic level characters maybe you'd better evolve your setting rather than trying to fit your characters into a setting one size too small. Story elements are always the best and most enjoyable ways to make a system work. If you enforce a handicap, it just chafes.

-C

 

[LordAO]

I honestly don't see a problem. Everyone has things to buy. A fighter has to buy a weapon to make use of his attack bonus, so why shouldn't a Mage have to buy/find spells to make use of his abilities?

 

[Arravis]

Does a fighter need to spend 25k in XP to get his weapon? And are you saying that casters don't need items just as much as non-casters? Both rely on items equally.

I find it extremely unfair that Epic Casters are asked to make sacrifices no one else is asked to. I'm not saying NOT to make sacrifices nor that Epic Spells aren't powerful... but allow for several ways to make sacrifices and limit power.

 

[Ristamar]

Does a fighter need to spend 25k in XP to get his weapon? And are you saying that casters don't need items just as much as non-casters? Both rely on items equally.

I think you'll find a lot of people who will emphatically disagree with that particular assertion, myself included. It becomes glaringly obvious at higher levels that a 'naked' mage can still handle many situations fairly easily despite his lack of magic items (as long as he's not completely caught off guard and defenseless), while a lone fighter without his 'toys' is pretty screwed.

 

[Grazzt]

Its sort of a "I can save the kingdom ... at great cost to myself" kind of thing.

How much more epic/mythic can that be? Isn't this what epic is all about?

 

[Arravis]

***while a lone fighter without his 'toys' is pretty screwed.***

I don't agree. A lone fighter who is able to at least pick up some kind of weapon, be it a rusty old sword or a wooden chair leg, is still able to use his feats, his bonuses (by then, that +5 to hit from a magic sword isn't much compared to the min +20 you get from just being lvl 20+).

Imagine you could design your own uber-fighter feats but each one cost you upwards of 15-30k in XP each and could only be used 1-3 times a day? I just feel that they are asking too much of Epic Wizards. At least they should have alternatives to the cost of Epic Spellcasting.

 

[Arravis]

Sesostris Wrote:
***1: XP is the only way to get a spellcaster to hesitate with creating world-destroying spells. Material costs and rare components can always be gotten far more easily. I remember some heavy munchkining with the 2e high-level rules.***

Well, none of the Epic Spells come close to qualifying as "World-Destroying". And there are other ways to make it "hurt" to research without having the caster fall back in levels behind the party.

We're thinking of implementing a permanent stat reduction sacrifice for example. 1 stat point = 5k xp, additionally, each sacrificed stat point counts towards the "5" max you can modify with wishes. Therefor, if you wanted 20k xp for spell research you could lower your Constitution 4 points... but you could only raise it by 1 point with wishes (which by then would require 5 of them ) since it totlas 5. I find that to be a fair alternative to just loosing a ton of XP.