Epic spells and the Epic Caster (unfair balence of power?)

[Blacksad]

I just hate that they expect Epic Casters to fall back levels behind the group, while everyone else gets their abilities without such sacrifices and at a reasonable rate (ie, you don't have to be lvl 50 to get "good" powers/abilities). the payoff doesn't justify the sacrifice.

You are not alone, but consider the times needed to get patches on the Psi-Combat.

What we can do is produce lots and lots of spell/feat/magic item/prestige classes/alternate skill rules/etc.. in the house rule forum in the hope that some publisher notice an interest and produce an epic toolkit.

That's assuming that the ELH will get in the SRD before 2124, i.e. before the loss of interest in epic books, when producing epic books isn't viable anymore.

 

[ichabod]

On the one hand, I agree that the epic spellcasting seems to suck. I have an NPC sorceror who hangs out with the party I'm going to be running at epic levels. I tried to make an epic spell that would fit him. I came up with Helcar's Acid Orchestra. It's 10 rounds, each round you point to a spot and a 20d6 10 ft. radius geyser of acid errupts from that spot, showering down in a 20 ft. radius for 5d6 damag e the next round.

Now, it wasn't quite clear how to figure out the DC, but I came up with a 73. Helcar can't cast it. His spellcraft is a 33. Which brings up another problem with epic spells I don't think anyone else has mentioned: they're Int dependent, which makes it hard for non-wizards. Helcar is a sorceror, and has been putting his stat bumps into Charisma. The other caster in the party is a cleric who had bad rolls, and sacrificed Int because it fit his character concept. The best he's going to be able to manage by 26th level is 18 ranks of spellcraft. Especially since they're basing DCs on a sorceror.

Back to the spell, which a 25th level sorceror can't cast. Think about it as if there were 10th+ level spells. Helcar's Acid Orchestra is maybe a 12th level spell. I'd maybe make it 11th, since it's useful against hordes, not CR 25 monsters. A 25th level sorceror should be able to cast it.

I'm thinking of just forgetting epic level spells, and allowing characters to research 10th+ level spells normally, and cast them if they have the slots.

Now, on the other hand, my experience is that at high levels the spellcasters tend to outsihine the other players. I don't mind having spellcasting post 20th level slow down, so others can catch up. But this epic spellcasting seems to be a waste of time. However, I have some time on my hand, so I'm going to work on revising epic spellcasting to make it more useful.

 

[Arravis]

I would like to see just some simple modifications to the Epic Spellcasting system, something that can be cleanly implemented and doesn't totally trash the current system. Could be as simple as halving the XP cost, or lowering the cost of raising DC's and allowing for no saves (these ARE epic spells we're talking about here).

 

[Chromnos]

WANTED: Epic Casting System, must allow unlimited advancement, great flexibility, and power in line with the word Epic. Apply in person.

burne [/B]

Couldn't agree with you more Burne.

Wanna be an epic spell caster? Get ready to be spanked!

In reference to your want add- how can I apply? Give me one weekend with the Bailywolf and I'll meet that order (Will work for soda, pizza, and the chance to play a game that hasn't engineered spellcasters for obsolescence).

-C

 

[Blacksad]

Ichabod- the sorcerer doesn't have to memorize his epic spell and the cleric get the life and resurection seeds, that compensate the fact that int isn't their spellcasting ability. It's ugly, but it's WotC way.

 

[Eraslin]

- While the 'naked' fighter is still a decent offensive machine against opponents lacking DR or having very poor DR, he lacks adequate means of protecting himself. Again, the casters have plenty of means to protect themselves, such as endure elements, mage armor, shield, stoneskin, etc. On top of that, you have utility spells (summon spells, teleportation, invisibility, haste, wall of force, etc.) and even if the caster is caught mostly unprepared, he can generally conjure some sort of temporary defense (or flee and/or hide magically), buff himself with spells, and then go to town on the enemy.

High level fighers need their magical equipment to survive. Casters are far more capable of making due without it in a pinch. [/B]

I'm going to have to argue with you about this one -- you're comparing apples and oranges. Let's be fair here, if you're going to try to compare a 'naked' fighter to a wizard, then you'd best compare it to a 'naked' wizard.

Spell components: If you have a naked wizard/sorc/cleric that caster is very much screwed for the vast majority of his/her spells. Unless the caster happens to have the eschew materials feat (not bloodly likely) and uses it, the caster cannot cast the vast majority of his/her spells. If a fighter is stripped of all weapons, it's fairly easy for him/her to pick up any old thing and defend him/herself (heck, even a table leg!). On the other hand, strip a caster of his/her posessions and ask him/her to defend his/herself?!? You've got to be kidding! How common do you think those spell components are?? It's nice to see that in your campaign world amber rods (for lightning bolt) grow on trees, nevermind the (iirc) 200gp worth of diamond dust required for stoneskin (one of your own example spells).

The spellbook: Granted, this only applies to wizards but it's a very real issue. Let's say that the party of adventurers gets captured, stripped of all posessions, and teleported to the other side of the planet to a prison camp. This is a very real posibility for the 'naked' character scenario we're discussing. Now, should the characters try to break out. Odds are, the casters aren't going to be much help (see the spell component discussion) but the fighters/warriors/rogues will be able to use every skill/feat that they have (with a few exceptions like the weapon specific stuff). So, you have a warrior who may not be as well defended as he/she is used to. But, can quite possibly be quite effective as a break-out-of-jail tool.

Now, fastforward. Suppose that the characters actually break out of the prison. It's fairly safe to say, that recovering their stolen belongings isn't going to happen any time soon. So, the characters need to re-equip somehow. Well, the fighters and warrior-types can probably scavange some older weapons/armors off of some local brigands. The cleric might be able to scrounge up a holy symbol and some spell components -- with a little work. Similarly, the sorc might be able to find some of his/her required spell components. The wizard, on the other hand, is quite frankly fubared! He has to replace his spellbook!! Are you aware that a first level spellbook costs almost 2000gp to replace, assuming that you're given the spells for free (this is just the scribing costs). Try to imagine what it would cost for an L20+ wizard to replace his/her stolen spellbooks... Even creating a new spellbook with one spell of every level is a _huge_ investment for someone with no starting capital.

In short, please don't compare 'naked' any-class to 'naked' any-other class unless you take everything into consideration. Quite simply, any class would die if stripped of all belongings and sent against a demon/devil/dragon/etc -- some just might last a little longer, and some might actually hurt the thing...

-Eraslin

 

[Ristamar]

I'm going to have to argue with you about this one -- you're comparing apples and oranges. Let's be fair here, if you're going to try to compare a 'naked' fighter to a wizard, then you'd best compare it to a 'naked' wizard.

Spell components: If you have a naked wizard/sorc/cleric that caster is very much screwed for the vast majority of his/her spells. Unless the caster happens to have the eschew materials feat (not bloodly likely) and uses it, the caster cannot cast the vast majority of his/her spells. If a fighter is stripped of all weapons, it's fairly easy for him/her to pick up any old thing and defend him/herself (heck, even a table leg!). On the other hand, strip a caster of his/her posessions and ask him/her to defend his/herself?!? You've got to be kidding! How common do you think those spell components are?? It's nice to see that in your campaign world amber rods (for lightning bolt) grow on trees, nevermind the (iirc) 200gp worth of diamond dust required for stoneskin (one of your own example spells).

The spellbook: Granted, this only applies to wizards but it's a very real issue. Let's say that the party of adventurers gets captured, stripped of all posessions, and teleported to the other side of the planet to a prison camp. This is a very real posibility for the 'naked' character scenario we're discussing. Now, should the characters try to break out. Odds are, the casters aren't going to be much help (see the spell component discussion) but the fighters/warriors/rogues will be able to use every skill/feat that they have (with a few exceptions like the weapon specific stuff). So, you have a warrior who may not be as well defended as he/she is used to. But, can quite possibly be quite effective as a break-out-of-jail tool.

Now, fastforward. Suppose that the characters actually break out of the prison. It's fairly safe to say, that recovering their stolen belongings isn't going to happen any time soon. So, the characters need to re-equip somehow. Well, the fighters and warrior-types can probably scavange some older weapons/armors off of some local brigands. The cleric might be able to scrounge up a holy symbol and some spell components -- with a little work. Similarly, the sorc might be able to find some of his/her required spell components. The wizard, on the other hand, is quite frankly fubared! He has to replace his spellbook!! Are you aware that a first level spellbook costs almost 2000gp to replace, assuming that you're given the spells for free (this is just the scribing costs). Try to imagine what it would cost for an L20+ wizard to replace his/her stolen spellbooks... Even creating a new spellbook with one spell of every level is a _huge_ investment for someone with no starting capital.

In short, please don't compare 'naked' any-class to 'naked' any-other class unless you take everything into consideration. Quite simply, any class would die if stripped of all belongings and sent against a demon/devil/dragon/etc -- some just might last a little longer, and some might actually hurt the thing...

-Eraslin

Feh. I knew someone was going to argue about spellbooks and materials.

Well, 'naked fighter/wizard' is obviously up to interpretation. In retrospect, perhaps I should have simply said 'without magical equipment' or 'having only common/standard equipment.' In that light, my statements hold merit.

 

[Arravis]

I would have to disagree. Meleers need their items for offense, pure casters need them for protection. Have you seen how many HP a wizard has? A Epic level wizard is still more then subject to Power Word: Kill. A good standard of knowing that you've got "good hp".

 

[Ristamar]

I would have to disagree. Meleers need their items for offense, pure casters need them for protection. Have you seen how many HP a wizard has? A Epic level wizard is still more then subject to Power Word: Kill. A good standard of knowing that you've got "good hp".

If a 'naked' wizard or fighter is facing against something/someone strong enough to be throwing around Power Word: Kill, either one would likely soon be dead (though, again, I'd argue the wizard will still have a better chance at survival). Why not throw in a maximized Meteor Swarm while you're at it?

Even if the wizard had a ton of magic equipment, he can still fall victim to PWK. Anyone can (given their hp is low enough). Simply pointing out that a wizard can be taken out with a PWK doesn't nullify my argument.

Nakedness and such aside, fighters are simply much more dependent on equipment than wizards. I don't see how this can be argued considering that's part of the basis for their respective class features.

Fighters can use every weapon under the sun and wear more types of armor than you can shake a stick at. They rely on said weapons and armor for a large portion of their offensive and defensive capabilities.

Wizards, on the other hand, can't use squat. They suck with weapons and armor. For the longest time, they couldn't even wear armor. Of course, they can in 3e, though I don't know many players that go that route, since it messes with casting spells. They mainly rely on their class strength, spellcasting, for offensive and defensive capabilites. This has always been the case in any edition of D&D.

With that in mind, you're trying to convince me that taking away a fighter's class strength and the wizard's class weakness amounts to an equal end result?

Sorry, I just don't see it.

 

[Arravis]

Regardless, how often are adventurers without their equipment. The point here is that the XP cost for Epic Spells is WAY too much. Regardless of how equipment reliant one class is compared to another, it doesn't matter to the real issue at hand. Is it fair that because the wizard in your party wants a spell that he should be a level behind the rest of the party?