Epic spells and the Epic Caster (unfair balence of power?)

[Ristamar]

Regardless, how often are adventurers without their equipment. The point here is that the XP cost for Epic Spells is WAY too much. Regardless of how equipment reliant one class is compared to another, it doesn't matter to the real issue at hand. Is it fair that because the wizard in your party wants a spell that he should be a level behind the rest of the party?

To be honest, I'm still undecided on the XP costs for Epic Level Spells. It's just when you said this...

Does a fighter need to spend 25k in XP to get his weapon? And are you saying that casters don't need items just as much as non-casters? Both rely on items equally.

...it set off alarms in my head. I didn't mean to steer the thread off topic, but I felt the need to debate that point.

 

[Arravis]

Forget the "Both rely on items equally" line, and take a look at the "Does a fighter need to spend 25k in XP to get his weapon?".
That's the line that matters. The wizard's weapons are his spells.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Personally, I am not fond of taking away experience points to balance the game. I think this was a poor game design. It has always been a tradition to require the Wizard to give experience to balance him. I would love for once that someone would take a look at how we really view spell casters in every fantasy world that I have seen (excluding the ones written based on the D&D system). Wizards cast spells by using the energy that is around them. They harness it to do their will. The ability to control this power is what should be used to balance the wizard not taking away hard earned experience. In fact if a wizard studies and learns how to create an item he should gain experience not lose it. (I don't think I am dumber for creating a mini computer in collage, in fact I would say I gained experience.) I would also require that the component system be used to help balance wizards. I think I would require that the spellbook would have to be present for spells that are of high level and used during the casting. I am not saying there are not instances where XP should be taken, but it should not be used as a balancing technique.

Are you kidding me? Xp cost is not unrealistic at all. It is actually a very mild version of what we see in literature:
--Sauron creating the One Ring puts a piece of his soul into it (LotR)
--Ged healing the hole in the underworld expends all his magical power(EarthSea)
--cumulative aging from using magic (Shannara series)
--ritual human sacrifice for black magic; take a look at the Death Knell spell and consider more powerful variants

It absolutely makes sense that epic level spells sometimes require very significant sacrifice.

Besides, a very well equipped 17th level Wizard is not at any disadvantage relative to a 19th level Fighter. The downside of lagging behind your comrades is greatly exagerated.

 

[Arravis]

Have you ever played in a campaign in a 17th lvl+ campaign and lagged behind levels? I have seen it and it does make a dramatic difference.

 

[Ristamar]

Overall, the XP costs don't bother me. Casters can do things the warrior types only dream of. Summon 10 adult red dragons to simultaneously breathe on your enemies. Make it rain fire from the sky. Kill someone and animate their corpse in a blink of an eye so no one is the wiser...

Bah. I scoff at their puny swords...

 

[Valdier]

Ok, so I realize either people here are bad at math or just don't get it.

Lets look at epic spells just one more time. Someone asked how much it would take to destroy the world. Well lets see:

I will start with a mage, 22nd level.

25 ranks spell craft
30 intelligence with items and wish. +10
+30 ring of spellcraft.(cheap)

== +65 so 75 on take 10.

Ok, so lets design a spell that requires DC 75 or so that can wipe most people off the planet, or at least a heck of a lot of them.

Death Storm
Necromancy[Death]
Spellcraft DC: 76
Component: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 20 miles
Duration: 20 hours
Save: Reflex negates(see text)
SR: Yes

Seed Energy(weather)(DC 19), Seed Slay(DC 25), change slay to work like enervation (ad hoc +29 DC), Increase casting time 9 minutes(DC -18), Backlash 15d6 damage(DC -15), Increase area x9(DC +36).

This spell summons forth a cloud of ash straight from the Negative Energy plane. This dust appears and falls from the sky taking 10 minutes to settle over a 20 mile radius. All creatures in the area are subject to losing 1d4 levels if they are touched by the ashes. Creatures indoors are safe from the effect assuming they do not travel outside while the ash is present on the ground. The ashes slowly dissapear over a period of 20 hours, at this time it is again safe.


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The secret to epic spells is to mix the seeds. Weather is essential if you want mass area death spells.

 

[ichabod]

Ok, so I realize either people here are bad at math or just don't get it.

Lets look at epic spells just one more time. Someone asked how much it would take to destroy the world. Well lets see:

<snip>

Acid Storm
Evocation[Acid]
Spellcraft DC: 76
Component: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 20 miles
Duration: 20 hours
Save: Reflex negates(see text)
SR: Yes

Seed Energy(weather)(DC 19), Seed Slay(DC 25), change slay to work like enervation (ad hoc +19 DC), Increase casting time 9 minutes(DC -18), Backlash 5d6 damage(DC -5), Increase area x9(DC +36).

This spell summons forth a cloud of ash straight from the Negative Energy plane. This dust appears and falls from the sky taking 10 minutes to settle over a 20 mile radius. All creatures in the area are subject to losing 1d4 levels if they are touched by the ashes. Creatures indoors are safe from the effect assuming they do not travel outside while the ash is present on the ground. The ashes slowly dissapear over a period of 20 hours, at this time it is again safe.


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The secret to epic spells is to mix the seeds. Weather is essential if you want mass area death spells.

Well, first of all, that doesn't destroy the world. All it does is kill the low level people who can't get inside in a 20 mile radius. Second of all, that is a dubious use of the weather seed. The base seed is the one most important to the overall purpose of the spell. Obviously, that is the slay seed, not the weather seed. Changing the slay seed to a 20 mile radius is +21130 DC. Third, the spell is still not that good. I would never blow 684,000 gp and 27360 xp to get that spell. I'd have to be 28th level to do so, and why would I give up an entire level for that?

 

[Arravis]

My point exactly... you're giving up levels for spells that aren't that great.

 

[Valdier]

Well, first of all, that doesn't destroy the world. All it does is kill the low level people who can't get inside in a 20 mile radius. Second of all, that is a dubious use of the weather seed. The base seed is the one most important to the overall purpose of the spell. Obviously, that is the slay seed, not the weather seed. Changing the slay seed to a 20 mile radius is +21130 DC. Third, the spell is still not that good. I would never blow 684,000 gp and 27360 xp to get that spell. I'd have to be 28th level to do so, and why would I give up an entire level for that?

That is I am afraid incorrect. Weather is the mitigating effect here not slay. The spell is stylized and funtions like a weather affect, in fact, make it... Rains ash, lose one level per minute instead. Rain of fire works the same exact way, I just happen to have it draining a level instead of doing a point of damage, that is why my DC is far higher. Some people just have trouble reading I guess. If I wanted it to be cheaper to develop, I would add a couple ritual casters to go with it, easily charmable low level mages, and increase the time a day, and the backlash a few more dice. I also didn't say it destroyed the world, but killing a 40 mile diameter can in fact kill a huge population center, at 10 minute casting time, it would be really easy for the 25th level mage to cast this 6 times a day. In FR, that would essentially kill every major population center in a week, the world is effectively destroyed for civilization purposes.

 

[Valdier]

Third, the spell is still not that good. I would never blow 684,000 gp and 27360 xp to get that spell. I'd have to be 28th level to do so, and why would I give up an entire level for that?

Another comment... why on earth would I care if you would take the spell? Does your approval of it for your character somehow make it a valid spell?

I specifically mentioned what and who I was replying to and commenting on. Someone asked what it would take to make a "uber death spell" I said... let me see what I can do at 22nd level... not... "let me make a stupidly high DC spell that kills everything".