Epic spells and the Epic Caster (unfair balence of power?)

[LordAO]

It seems to me that if you divide the experience and gold cost of these spells by 10, then it will probably be balanced. (I didn't realize at first that they were this expensive, and then the save DC issue... Sorry, I started out on the other side of this argument, but now I have switched sides.) Another thing to point out is that, sure, fighters need to buy weapons, but they only need one. Ever hear of a mage who can survive with a single spell?

 

[GuardianLurker]

Other points about DCs

Those incredibly hard DCs and XP costs are easier than you think...

Assuming a 20th level Cleric/9th level wizard, with max ranks in Spellcraft, and the Epic Spellcasting, Epic Skill Focus, and Craft Epic Rod feats.

First, said cleric makes a Rod of Epic Spellcasting. (122700 gp + 12454 xp). Next, he makes two (2) Rods of Excellent Magic (325000+26000 @).

At this point, his effective Spellcraft bonus is :
+32 (pure ranks)
+10 (Epic Skill Focus - Insight bonus)
+10 (Rod of Epic Spellcasting)
+30 (Misc. wonderous item giving +30 competence bonus to Spellcraft)
+ 3 (Int 17)
+ 3 (Headband of Intellect +6)

Total Bonus : 88

But why two Rods of Excellent Magic? This is why:

As a special use of the rod, the caster can substitute the power inherent in the rod for the experience point development cost of an epic spell. Doing so drains all the power from the rod, rendering it useless.

Enervate Kingdom
Evocation & Conjuration [ritual]
Spellcraft DC: 93
Components: V,S, DF
Casting Time: 6 minutes
Range: 300 ft.
Area of Effect: 20 mile radius
Duration: 25 hours
Saving Throw: Fort (Save DC: 60)
Spell Resistance: Yes (SR check at +20)

This spell affects a 20-mile radius, draining 10 levels from all creatures within the area for at least 25 hours if they fail the Fortitude saving throw. The level drain is permanent if they fail a second saving throw after 24 hours. The spell's affects are delayed by 10 rounds after completion of casting.

Base Seed : Energy (Weather)
Additional Seed: Heal (Inverted, Level Drain)
Base DC calc: 17+25+(17*2 [hours])+(4*6 [levels])+(9*4 [area])+(15 [ad hoc asjustment for delay])+(40 [dc bonus])+(20*2 [SR bonus])=17+25+34+24+36+15+40+40=231
Mitigating Factors: (20 * -1 [2000 xp to cast])+ (5 * -2 [add 5 minutes])+(12 * -9 [10th level wizards supplying 5th level slots])=-20-10-108=-138
Final Spellcraft DC: 93

Cost to Develop: 837,000 gp + 0 xp (would normally be 25480 xp)

Why the 10 round delay? Got give the Circle of 13 time enough to teleport away.

Total cost : 1609700 gp and 64454 xp, with all the xp cost (and about a third of the gp) for the rod creation.

And this leads to a Caution : Beware Rods of Excellent Magic!

[Edit : fixed formatting]

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I don't have the EH, but here is a minor nitpick about the +100-200 spellcraft items mentioned. The +100 someone said would cost 2,000,000 and I think the +200 would be 8,000,000. Now unless they cheapened the xp cost of magic item creaiton that would be 80,000 and 320,000 xp respecitvely. Now unless they changed the xp needed for advancement that would mean you'd have to be a 80th - or 320th level character to have a chance to make one of these items. In other words yeah right you'll see one in your games. Now at the low end you could see the +100 total bonus like maybe a +30 and a couple other bonuses etc and bang you got +100 but a single +100 item I don't think we will see.

And by the way yes the rules sound lame. I saw some epic spells in a dragon and they were decidedly un-epic, paying ex, and GP for spells that are frequently weaker than 9th level spells, and almost always are weaker than metamagiced spells of 10th+ level just isn't worth it. And if it does follow the spells and magic system of 2nd edition then they took ideas from a lame source those rules for 10th level spells sucked for the same reasons.

 

[tjasamcarl]

This debate is silly...

A mage's essential spellcasting is not especially inhibited by concentration on Epic spellcasting...one feat and maxed out skill use, big deal. For that a range of options become available, many of which may or may not be balanced within a specific campaign. All available at the players whim... Wotc simply decided (rightly) to cover their bases by being aggressive with the dc requirement.

The same logic applys to item creation feats. The flexibility they offer could be balanced through either a charge of xp or gold. If they weighted it towards the latter, given the scale of item costs, a mage could only choose a few such items, abeit efficiently. The result on gameplay is more interesting if levels can be exchanged for item flexibility....

Arravis, balance is the question, not 'fairness', whatever the hell that means..you sound like a child when using such trite rhetoric..

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: This debate is silly...

Arravis, balance is the question, not 'fairness', whatever the hell that means..you sound like a child when using such trite rhetoric..

And you sound like a rude jerk. I think it is fairly obvious that in this case fairness virtually equalled balance in Arravis's posts.

 

[Arravis]

Until now, this thread had been without name-calling or insulting. Keep it that way. You are welcome to disagree with anyone here, but keep it at a mature and respectable level. When you begin insulting people, whatever you have to say looses all credability.

 

[Oni]

Death Storm
Necromancy[Death]
Spellcraft DC: 76
Component: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 20 miles
Duration: 20 hours
Save: Reflex negates(see text)
SR: Yes

Seed Energy(weather)(DC 19), Seed Slay(DC 25), change slay to work like enervation (ad hoc +29 DC), Increase casting time 9 minutes(DC -18), Backlash 15d6 damage(DC -15), Increase area x9(DC +36).

This spell summons forth a cloud of ash straight from the Negative Energy plane. This dust appears and falls from the sky taking 10 minutes to settle over a 20 mile radius. All creatures in the area are subject to losing 1d4 levels if they are touched by the ashes. Creatures indoors are safe from the effect assuming they do not travel outside while the ash is present on the ground. The ashes slowly dissapear over a period of 20 hours, at this time it is again safe.

Actually I think this is a pretty cool spell in its own way, and potentially much more devastating than some people might give it credit for. I think most people agree that the bulk of any major population center is 1st level commoners and so would die instantly from any contact with the ash, but it is important to remember that anyone that dies from level draining in this manner will come back as a wight. Wights would of course seek out and kill anything that escaped the ash its self, and their sheer numbers would probably destroy any being of high enough level to have escaped death by the ash. Of course once the city proper is gone, can you imagine the incredable amount of damage that many decenty powerful undead would do pouring out over the surrounding countryside? It would make your average zombie flick look like a sunny afternoon in the park. While a spell that might not implode planets, it certianly has the potential to destroy kingdoms.

 

[CRG]

epic fighter and epic mage

Just a simple question.

Lets back down to a party, average level 10.

Your mage can clean up on the bad guy grunts (and does), has some nifty abilities that are fairly dynamic (do I want to charm him or hide?) and some other nifty useful things he can do.

The fighter is ok with the grunts, but really, doesn't he usually tackle the big bad?

--------------------------------------------

Cut to epic progression. So what if your spells can't match the save DC of an equal level fighter (or rogue, etc.)? Can you usually? How often does your mage disintegrate equal levelled creatures?

My point....mages sling spells. Lots of them at times. No one can match the artillery they possess - the sheer mass damage. Acid fog/storm for god's sake, fireball. Fighter can't do it, and doesn't. But when was the last time your mage toasted the enemy's lead fighter and killed him with a fireball? If the epic version of that is just as effective, is it really a shaft?

 

[Arravis]

I've always seen the balance between a caster and a meleer to be their role. A caster has a small window of opportunity to do his work, if that window is not successful, he's totally and completely helpless. Caster's are a gun to a meleer's knife. You WILL run out of bullets and when you do, you're helpless. A knife can kill all day .

I agree that is over-simplifying it quite a bit. I do agree that caster's tend to be more poweful in actual game experience, since the party isn't constantly fighting without rest. In such an endurance scenario, the meleers would come out on top most certainly.

Anyway, sacrifice I do not mind, be it permanent loss of stat points, hit points, etc... but falling behind in levels I consider too much. Anyway, I think we've come at an empass on this issue. Either you agree or not (I suspect those that have a good bit of caster experience in 3rd ed are the ones agreeing). I would like to see some alternative methods proposed, for those that do agree.

 

[ichabod]

from valdier:

I also didn't say it destroyed the world

Ah, yes you did:

from valdier:

Someone asked how much it would take to destroy the world. Well lets see:

And when you can have a reasonable discusssion without telling me I don't know how to read, I don't know how to add, and that I'm not worthy of commenting on the cost to benefit ratio of a given spell, I'll get back to you on the rest of your claims.