Epic Spells....huhwhat????

[Cloudgatherer]

It's a crappy system. The entire ELH is riddled with problems. I've tried to play in Epic games, but it usually breaks at some point early on. The adventure in the book is a joke (yeah, we can take that red dragon... riiiight). And for some reason, Still/Silent is given the same treatment as Quicken. Which do you think is more useful?

 

[Camarath]

The only thing I every used this system for was inspiration for an alternate psionics system.

 

[kreynolds]

Here's a better comparison of the spell to take into account the increased saving throw DC of epic spells...

The target spell will have a casting time of 1 action, deal 10d6 points of fire damage in a 20-foot radius, allow a Reflex save for half damage, heightened to a 9th-level spell, and have a range of 1,200 feet. These would be the statistics of a normal 3rd-level fireball spell cast by a non-epic 10th-level caster.

[color=white]Seed: Energy				+19
Spell Factors:
1-action casting time			+20
Increase range by 100% (x4=1,200 feet)	+8
Change area to 20-foot radius		+2
Mitigating Factors:
(adhoc) decrease saving throw by 1	-2
Spellcraft DC Total			47
Cost to Develop		423,000 GP + 16,920 XP
Development Time			9 Days[/color]

...and here's a comparison, more closely matched, using lightning bolt...

The target spell will have a casting time of 1 action, deal 10d6 points of electricity damage in an area 5 feet wide and 300 feet long, allow a Reflex save for half damage, heightened to a 9th-level spell, and have a range of 300 feet. These would be the statistics of a normal 3rd-level lightning bolt spell cast by a non-epic 20th-level caster.

[color=white]Seed: Energy				+19
Spell Factors:
1-action casting time			+20
Mitigating Factors:
(adhoc) decrease saving throw by 1	-2
Spellcraft DC Total			37
Cost to Develop		333,000 GP + 13,320 XP
Development Time			7 Days[/color]

Anyway, still funky. Man, I've got two games currently running that are one and two levels away from epic. I've gotta get this figured out before then.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Actually, the epic spellcasting system is a powergamer's wet dream. The problem is that the system is hard to use, and easy to abuse. Here are some examples of spells that folks on WotC's ELH boards have created:

Moon Spiral Heart Attack (yes, it's a Sailor Moon parody)
Necromancy (Death)
Spellcraft DC: 49
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 300 ft
Target: One living creature up to 160 HD
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving throw: Fortitude partial
Spell resistance: Yes
To develop: 441,000 gp; 17,640 XP; 9 days. Seed: slay (25).
Factors: 1-action casting time (20), +30 save DC (+60), affect additional 80 HD (+8). Mitigating factors: 64d6 backlash damage (-64).

A spiral beam of pure white energy shoots from the caster's hand accompanied by a blaze of sparkles, hearts and other special effects, striking a single target. If the target is a living creature with 160 HD or less, it must pass a Fortitude save (DC 50+key ability modifier) or die. If it passes, it takes 3d6+20 damage.

The One Who Comes After
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 50
Components: V, S, XP
Casting time: 1 day, 10 minutes
Range: Personal/touching creature (see below)
Target: Self/touching creature (see below)
Duration: Until discharged/permanent (see below)
Saving throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To develop: 450,000 gp; 9 days; 18,000 XP. Seed: Transform (21). Factors: Double contingency (twice cost of being contingent on trigger = +50), +40 to save DC (+80), change type of target creature (+5), transform into specific individual (+25), give assumed form up to 50 HD (+70). Mitigating factors: +9 minutes to duration (-18), +1 day to duration (-2), nine additional casters contributing 5th-level spell slots (-81), burn 1,000 XP per caster (-100).

This ritual spell requires nine additional participants, each contributing a 5th-level spell slot. The first contingency is activated if the caster dies. If his remains are subsequently touched by a creature with as many or more HD than his own at the time of casting the spell, the second contingency activates: that creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 60+caster's key ability modifier) or be instantly transmuted into a copy of the caster at the time when he cast the spell. This copy has all abilities (except supernatural) that the caster had at the time of casting, along with his memories and personality; to all intents and purposes, it is him. This spell is often used by evil arcane spellcasters with no access to resurrection magic or cloning tanks.
XP Cost: 1,000 XP from each participant in the ritual.

Form of the Avatar.

Developed by a elven druid with a cat fixation, this spell transforms the target into a lycanthrope. She used this spell on herself (changing into a Werepanther) and several warriors from her village. The spell was developed to use the help of a Sorcerer ally (who was working on a spell to turn himself into a dragon). The target gains most of the abilities of a Lycanthrope, including: +2 racial mod to wisdom, the ability to change shape into their totem animals form and a hybrid form, the scent ability, DR 10/silver in animal/hybrid form, The shapeshifter type, and Animal Empathy. The target does not gain any additional HD or feats (unlike a normal Lycanthrope), but they also do not change alignment.

Cost: Transform Seed (21), Changes Type (+5), Lycanthropes +2 racial bonus to Wis (10), Shapeshifting (10), DR10/silver (10), Animal Empathy (10), Scent (10) = 76 in Factors.
Mitigating Factors: 10 Min casting time (-18), requires another Epic spell slot from an Epic Spellcaster (-19)
Final Cost= 39 = 351000gp, 14040xp, 7 days.

Inferno
Spellcraft DC: 23
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 1500 ft
Area: 5 hundred foot radius sphere
Duration: Instantaneous
Saveing Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 207,000 gp; 5 days; 8280 XP. Seed: energy(DC 19). Factor: change area to 500 ft (+ 50 DC), increase range to 1,500 (+ 10 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time to ten minutes (- 18 DC), two additional casters contributing 5th level spell slots(-18 DC).

This is essentially a spell to wipe out large groups of people such a large portion of an army. This spell deals 10d6 points of fire damage within the area of effect. (The seed said bolt but the other damages were for the 20 hour duration.)

Inhabit Golem
Spellcraft DC: 32
Components: V,S,XP
Casting Time: 65 days
Range: Touch
Target: You or person your touching and golem you are touching
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 288,000 gp; 6 days; 11,520 XP. Seed: animate (DC 25), transport (DC 27). Factors: soul transport (ad hoc +4), permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating Factors: burn 10,000 XP, 10 minutes casting time (-18 DC), 65 days casting time (-130 DC)

This spell transfers one willing soul into an already made golem but for the geas/quest spell. If the golem has magic immunity the person loses their spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. They also lose any abilities that rely on their body such as poison.

Wall of Epic Security
[Abjuration]
DC:82
Components: V,S, Ritual
Castingtime: 10 minutes
Area : 160 ft
Duration: Permanent
Save: Fort half
SR: Yes
To develop: 738000 GP, 15 days, 29,520 XP, Seeds: ward(14), Forsee (17) , Destroy(29), Factors: 4x Increase area by 100% (+16 DC), Ward against 0-9th level spells (+160 DC), Increase damage die from d6 to d20 (+40 dc), Permanent duratation(DCx5) (DC=1380) Mitigating factors: +9 minutes casting time(-18dc), Ritual (-1280 dc):
10 1st, 10 4th-7th, 20 8th, 10 9th, 10 10th and 10 11th level slots.

The participants of the ritual create a ward around them with a radius of 160 ft. All hostile spells of 0-9th level are negated when aimed at creatures/objects within the ward and every hostile creature inside the ward takes 20d20 points of damage until they leave. A successfull Fortitude save reduces the damage to 1/2 and SR does aplly. The ward is immobile.

Epic Intelligence
Spellcraft DC: 55
Casting time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Personal
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To develop; 495,000gp; 10 days; 19,800XP.
Primary seed: Fortify (DC 17).
Factors: Add 29 Inteligence (+58), Increase casting time by 9 minutes (-18DC), from touch to personal (-2DC)

This spell adds a +30 Intelligence enhancement bonus to the caster.

Ward Against Spells
Spellcraft DC: 34
Casting time: 10 minutes
Range: Caster
Target: Personal
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: none
To develop; 306,000gp; 7 days; 12,240XP.
Primary seed: Ward (DC 14).
Factors: Ward against all 1st level spells, Disintegrate, Holy Word, and Mordincain’s Disjunction (+40), Increase Casting time by 9 minutes (-18), change from touch to personal (-2),

This spell creates a ward for the caster against the effects 1st level spells, Disintegration, holy word, and Mordincain’s Disjunction.

Attack Ward
Spellcraft DC: 76
Range: Caster
Target: Personal
Duration: 7.5 days or until expended
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: none

Seed: Reflect (DC 27) (reflect 5 melee attacks), Reflect (DC 27) (reflect 5 ranged attacks) Increase Casting Time by 10 minutes (-20 DC) Add 3 extra melee attack reflections (+12 DC) Add 3 extra ranged attack reflections (+12 DC) Increase Duration 900% (+18 DC)

This spell lets 8 melee and 8 ranged attacks to be reflected upon their original attacker at the same bonus the original attack was made at.

Note that I don't necessarily think that these are great spells (or, for that matter, that I'd allow them IMC), just that they're examples of much more powerful epic spellcasting applications than hellball or kreynolds's fancy fireball.

Incidentally, all metamagic feats cost +2 DC per +1 effective level. So a Still, Silent epic spell has +4 to the DC, and a Quickened epic spell is +8 to the DC. So that, IMHO, is pretty balanced.

 

[WizarDru]

But see, those spells highlight what we're talking about, here. Some of them are nice examples, but very limited.

Take the Sailor Moon spell: it costs 17,000 x.p to research and costs 441,000....and it does an average of 224 points of damage to the caster. Yippee.

The next spell costs similarly high gp/xp...costs 1000 x.p. for all the casters involved. I'm not sure it's calculated correctly, either. And the DC to cast it? A 50.

And so on. Each one of the spells is incredibly expensive, and has serious limitations, such as the requirement for another Epic Spellcaster, 64 day casting time, fixed range/10 min. casting time/2 more spellcasters, etc.

I'm not questioning that it's balanced or not...just that I'm not sure that it's any FUN.

 

[kreynolds]

Glancing at one of the spells...

Moon Spiral Heart Attack, with 64d6 of backlash, I should make two points. First, the absolute minimum level caster of the spell would be 32nd-level, because of the backlash damage, and I would fully expect a 32nd-level caster to be able to wreak this kind of havoc, especially since his death is guaranteed. The average damage on 64d6 is 224 points of damage. The best a Wizard with a 16 Con from 1st-level could have would be 252 hit points. So, a Paragon Wizard could pull this off once and survive. However, the average hit points would be 198, which isn't enough to survive.

At first, I thought the spell was cheesy, and it certainly could be, depending upon who uses it. But it's really not that bad.

Incidentally, all metamagic feats cost +2 DC per +1 effective level.

Aside from the three you mention, this is news to me. Is it errata or was that just the intention of the designers (same to me, usually)?

So a Still, Silent epic spell has +4 to the DC, and a Quickened epic spell is +8 to the DC.

But those three are already covered in Table 2-2: Epic Spell Factors.

 

[drnuncheon]

Aside from the three you mention, this is news to me. Is it errata or was that just the intention of the designers (same to me, usually)?

I'm pretty sure it was intentional. Consider that in 2 levels, you can get 1 new level of spells, and 2 ranks of Spellcraft.

It works for Enlarge as well (+2 for +100% to range) and Extend (+100% duration for +2).

Of course, it doesn't work for Widen (either version)...

J

 

[der_kluge]

Yes, that's pretty crazy all right.

What's more, no one has even touched on the fact that 400,000 gold coins consumes an area of a large bedroom, and would weigh 8,000 pounds (using a nickel=gold coin).

 

[kreynolds]

I know this is crap, but it's just something that made me chuckle (it's a joke)...

DEVASTATION FIREBALL II BREAKDOWN
The following is a breakdown of the devastation fireball II spell.
The target spell will have a casting time of 1 action, deal 5,000d6 points of fire damage in a 100-foot radius, allow a Reflex save for half damage, and have a range of 1,200 feet. It will also require 480 casters, each devoting one unused 9th-level spell slot, in a ritual casting.

[color=white]Seed: Energy					+19
Spell Factors:
1-action casting time				+20
Increase range by 100% (x4=1,200 feet)		+8
Change area to 20-foot radius			+2
Increase area by 100% (x4=100-foot radius)	+16
+4,090d6 damage					+8,180
480 casters devoting 9th-level slot in ritual	-8,160
Mitigating Factors:
none
Spellcraft DC Total				85
Cost to Develop				765,000 GP + 30,600 XP
Development Time				16 Days[/color]

 

[The Souljourner]

I agree 100%. In theory you can make any spell you want. In reality, spending 10,000xp and 500,000gp on a spell isn't going to be worth it for a LONG time.

I would divide all costs by 10 and see what happens.. and maybe limit mitigating factors to something reasonable, like no more than 1/2 the DC before the mitigating factors.

-The Souljourner