Epic Template (Revised)

Very cool picture. Only thing I am doubtful about is the BAB. It should still be +1. There is an attack bonus of 15, but nothing that I know of will increase BAB but hit dice.
 

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Tarrasque Wrangler said:
I understand your concerns, and I appreciate you taking the time to give me feedback.

The down and dirty answer is quite simple: I need canon fodder for my epic game.

Of course I don't just throw critters after critters at my PC's so that they can get epic-loads of X.P.. I like the larger-than-life aspect of epic gaming, and my games are colorful. The context of the combats is colorful too.

Let me address your concerns point-by-point:

"I mean, an epic-level threat that's only a 1st level warrior? I understand your point about it taking longer to advance a monster or add character levels (I'd probably do a little of both), but I think it's worth it to make NPCs and monsters that at least make sense according to the rules. "

The 1st level warrior thing is an artefact from the cut-n-paste I did from the SRD. It is just basically a kobold. I just slapped an attitude to it.

From my experience, not everything has to be perfect to every single digit behind the DM's screen. So what if you give a critter a +23 BAB when, after precise and time consuming calculations, you find out it's actually +20 ? You still add a d20 to it.

The players will be none the wiser, and if you have a good flow during the game, that's all that matters. It never was an issue IMC, in over 18 years gaming. I still want it to be as close as possible, but I'm making a compromise between practicality and digits.

"What's the mechanism whereby this guy gets his "epic" template? "

Same one that allows for Paragon creatures. Same one that allows creature advancement. They are just more powerful and more rare representatives of their species.

"Just add half-fiend or something. "

Not high enough. Most templates gravitate around CR +1 or +2, and don't really boost critters that much.

"Is he an exceptional member of the species? Make him a paragon. "

I do that, but then many critters are out of the range of what I want to throw at the PC's. Paragon is CR +15, so for an epic game of say 24 level, that's good for critters in the CR 7 to 10 range. If I have a lesser template (my Epic template) at +10, then my range expands from CR 7 up to 15. I want to throw a few glabrezu at the PC's, so they think "Hah ! Glabrezus ! Heh !" and then *WHACK*... "Woah... where did THAT come from ? ? !"

"Just a really experienced dude? Add fighter levels. "

Yup, but that doesn't enhance critters with (Su) or (Sp) abilities. Slap 10 fighter levels on a Nalfeshnee, and you're just throwing X.P.'s at your PC's. Give it 10 Sorceror levels, and still it will be a cakewalk for a 24 level dude, because the 10 sorceror levels won't have the output in damage and S.T. DC's of a CR 22 critter. They won't stack with the 'Shnee's ability, they will be "aside"...

"Otherwise you are going to have some players wondering what the hell kinda steroids the local kobolds are on, and where they can score some themselves..."

Nah... they'll just have a blast, and have a feeling of marvel at fighting ol' critters that they thought where a thing of the past.
 
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Cheiromancer said:
Very cool picture. Only thing I am doubtful about is the BAB. It should still be +1. There is an attack bonus of 15, but nothing that I know of will increase BAB but hit dice.
Fixed.

But I'd really like your input about two things:

1) The CR. Should it be 10 or 8 ? (considering the base critter is CR 1/4)

2) Don't you think the attack bonus and damage output is a tad low for CR 8 ? Maybe if we triple the damage dice (in this case 3d6+14)... not that the weapon is bigger, just because its an epic-friggin'-dude weilding it. Wadja think ?

Thanks again for your help !
 
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Trainz said:
2) Don't you think the attack bonus and damage output is a tad low for CR 8 ? Maybe if we triple the damage dice (in this case 3d6+14)... not that the weapon is bigger, just because its an epic-friggin'-dude weilding it. Wadja think ?

I think one of the problems with the damage output is the absence of multiple attacks. Usually, a creature of CR ~8-10 will have secondary attacks...

AR

(I did what I could!)
 

You need to try out the template on more creatures to get a feel for what it does to CR. Templates don't work perfectly- just ask someone who tried to play a 1st level half-celestial paladin if he felt like a 5th level character!

That being said, I think this template works surprisingly well on a kobald. Now check it out on a 5 CR creature and a 10 CR creature and see what happens. Make sure that one of the creatures you try it on is one that does a lot of damage; then you can see if it is a good idea to double or triple the damage dice.

Remember that creatures with this template are pretty mobile. If they find themselves getting low on hit points, they can probably take off and wait a minute to heal. Then they come back dispel all the PCs buffing spells, and start attacking. Rinse and repeat. With +10 to both Intelligence and Wisdom, you'll want to play them pretty smart.

I think the epic kobald could be a tough opponent for an 8th level party if it uses smart tactics. At higher levels it is more likely to fall to a save or die spell, or fall victim to a couple of lucky hits. I would place it at as a 10 CR. Playtest it and see.

You are right about its damage- as a CR 8 to 10, the epic kobald doesn't do a whole lot of damage. But with qualities like epic DR and fast healing it is hard to see if it needs to get bumped up. Try out an epic girallon and see if the damage is too low!

BTW, I don't think the template can distinguish between a CR 1/4 and a CR 1. 1d4 hp or 2d8 hp makes a difference at 1st level between a CR of 1/4 and a CR of 1, but the distinction is kind of lost when you add 100 points on top. As you start getting into CRs higher than 2 then the hit points from hit dice starts becoming more significant, and so does armor, damage, and special attacks. So if the CR of an epic kobald turns out to be 10 it would be a mistake to infer that this template adds +12 CR. You'd need to test it out on some CR 5, 10 and 15 critters first.
 

Altamont Ravenard said:
I think one of the problems with the damage output is the absence of multiple attacks. Usually, a creature of CR ~8-10 will have secondary attacks... (I did what I could!)
Merci, j'apprécies ! :D
 

Cheiromancer said:
Thanks again for all your input. This template is as much my creation than it is yours.

In light of all you said, I'm pretty comfortable with it as is. I will be implementing it in my next game session and see how it turns out when applied to demons.

If this thread is not too far away by then, I might come back and post the results of the road-test.
 

It *is* a nice template. And it can be slapped together pretty quick. Here's a demon for you:

Epic Succubus

Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 6d8+ 6 +133 (166 hp)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 100 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 35 (+6 Dex, +5 insight, +14 natural), touch 21, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+17
Attack: Claw +22 melee (1d6+16)
Full Attack: 2 claws +22 melee (1d6+16)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy drain, spell-like abilities, summon demon
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/epic-cold iron or epic-good, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 5, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 15, cold 15, and fire 15, resistance to sonics 5, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., tongues
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +16, Will +17
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 23, Con 23, Int 26, Wis 24, Cha 36
Skills: Bluff +29, Concentration +20, Diplomacy +22, Disguise +27* (+29 acting), Escape Artist +20, Hide +20, Intimidate +29, Knowledge (any one) +22, Listen +29, Move Silently +20, Search +22, Spot +29, Survival +12 (+14 following tracks), Use Rope +12 (+13 with bindings)
Feats: Automatic Quicken spell-like ability (x3), Dodge, Mobility, Persuasive
Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

A succubus is 6 feet tall in its natural form and weighs about 125 pounds.

Combat
Epic succubi, like their lesser cousins, are not warriors. They flee combat whenever they can. If forced to fight, they can attack with their claws, but they prefer to turn foes against one another. All succubi use their polymorph ability to assume humanoid guise, and can maintain this deception indefinitely. Their preferred tactic when dealing with heroes is to feign friendship and create an opportunity to be alone with one of them, whereupon the succubus applies her life-draining kiss. Succubi are not above taking on the role of a damsel in distress when encountered within a dungeon. An epic succubus’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Energy Drain (Su): A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity.

The kiss or embrace of an epic succubus bestows two negative levels. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 31 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 31 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—charm monster (DC 32), detect good, detect invisible, detect thoughts (DC 30), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), fly, greater dispel magic, polymorph (humanoid form only, self only, no limit on duration), suggestion (DC 31), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only). Caster level 22nd. The save DCs are Charisma-based. By virtue of the epic succubus's feats, 1 spell-like ability may be used each round as a free action; a second ability may be used as a standard action.

Summon Demon (Sp): Once per day an epic succubus can attempt to summon 10 vrocks with a 30% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 8th-level spell.

Tongues (Su): A succubus has a permanent tongues ability (as the spell, caster level 22nd). Succubi usually use verbal communication with mortals.

Skills: Succubi have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
*While using her polymorph ability, a succubus gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.

****

Note: I added a +5 insight bonus to grapple checks. There is also the +5 bonus from increased strength. Caster level bonus is an insight bonus. Saving throw bonus is a luck bonus. Not that it matters, but even so.

The attacks of the succubus count as epic weapons as well as chaotic and evil. And I think any creatures summoned should also have the epic template. :D
 
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I did two: The Shnee and the Retreiver:

leaving.asp


Epic Nalfeshnee and Epic Succubus

EPIC NALFESHNEE

Huge Epic Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 14d8+112+275 (450 hp)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 80 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 42 (–2 size, +6 Dex, +5 insight, +23 natural) touch 19, flat-footed 36
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+44
Attack: Bite +35 melee (2d8+22)
Full Attack: Bite +35 melee (2d8+22) and 2 claws +32 melee (1d8+18)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite, spell-like abilities, summon demon
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good-epic, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 15, cold 15, fire 15, spell resistance 32, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing, fast healing 5
Saves: Fort +27, Ref +20, Will +25
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 23, Con 37, Int 32, Wis 32, Cha 30
Skills: Bluff +32, Concentration +35, Diplomacy +36, Disguise +15 (+17 acting), Hide +20, Intimidate +32, Knowledge (arcana) +33, Listen +41, Move Silently +28, Search +33, Sense Motive +33, Spellcraft +35 (+37 scrolls), Spot +41, Survival +16 (+18 following tracks), Use Magic Device +32 (+34 scrolls)
Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite), Automatic Quicken Spell-like ability, Dire Charge, Great Cleave
Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary or troupe (1 nalfeshnee, 1 hezrou, and 2–5 vrocks)
Challenge Rating: 24
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 15–20 HD (Huge); 21–42 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment:

Epic nalfeshnee can fly despite its small wings.
An epic nalfeshnee is more than 20 feet tall and weighs 8,000 pounds.

Combat:
When fulfilling their duties in the underworld, epic nalfeshnees usually disdain combat as being beneath them. Given the opportunity, they succumb to blood lust and do battle. They disable opponents with their smite ability and slaughter them while they can’t fight back.

An epic nalfeshnee’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned, evil-aligned and epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Smite (Su): Three times per day an epic nalfeshnee can create a nimbus of unholy light. When the demon triggers the ability, rainbow-colored beams play around its body. One round later they burst in a 60-foot radius. Any creature within this area must succeed on a DC 32 Will save or be dazed for 1d10 rounds as visions of its worst fears hound it. The creature receives its full Dexterity and shield bonuses to AC if attacked but can take no actions. Other demons are immune to this effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—call lightning (DC 28), feeblemind (DC 30), greater dispel magic, slow (DC 28), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), unholy aura (DC 33). Caster level 22th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Demon (Sp): Twice per day a nalfeshnee can attempt to summon 10d4 vrocks, 10d4 hezrous, or 1d10 glabrezu with a 50% chance of success, or 1d10 nalfeshnee with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

True Seeing (Su): Nalfeshnees continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 24th).

Skills: Nalfeshnees have a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.


leaving.asp

EPIC RETRIEVER

Huge Epic Construct (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 10d10+80+235 (370 hp)
Initiative: +13
Speed: 100 ft. (20 squares)
Armor Class: 36 (–2 size, +8 Dex, +5 insight, +15 natural), touch 21, flat-footed 28
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+40
Attack: Claw +30 melee (2d6+25) and eye ray +23 ranged touch
Full Attack: 4 claws +30 melee (2d6+25) and bite +25 melee (1d8+20) and eye ray +23 ranged touch
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Eye rays, find target, improved grab
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 10, low-light vision, damage reduction 5/epic, spell resistance 26, elemental resistance 5, Greater dispel magic, fly, see invisibility at will
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +16, Will +13
Abilities: Str 41, Dex 27, Con —, Int —, Wis 21, Cha 1
Skills:
Feats: Dire charge, Mobility, Power attack
Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 21
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 11–15 HD (Huge); 16–30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment:

An epic retriever specializes in recovering lost or desired objects, runaway slaves, and enemies and bringing them back to its master. An epic retriever has a body the size of an ox, with legs spanning more than 14 feet. It weighs about 6,500 pounds.

Combat:
Epic retrievers attack with four claws, but their eye rays are far more deadly.

Eye Rays (Su): An epic retriever’s eyes can produce four different magical rays with a range of 100 feet. Each round, it can fire one ray as a free action. A particular ray is usable only once every 4 rounds. A retriever can fire an eye ray in the same round that it makes physical attacks. The save DC for all rays is 28. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
The four eye effects are:
Fire: Deals 24d6 points of fire damage to the target (Reflex half ).
Cold: Deals 24d6 points of cold damage to the target (Reflex half ).
Electricity: Deals 24d6 points of electricity damage to the target (Reflex half ).
Petrification: The target must succeed on a Fortitude save or turn to stone permanently.

Find Target (Sp): When ordered to find an item or a creature, an epic retriever does so unerringly, as though guided by discern location.
The being giving the order must have seen (or must have an item belonging to) the creature to be found, or must have touched the object to be located. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an epic retriever must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and grips the opponent fast in its mouth. This is the method by which it usually “retrieves” things.

Spell-like abilities (Sp): Greater dispel magic, fly, see invisibility at will (caster level 20)


==================================

I really like how they turned out. ESPECIALLY the retriever. Quite nasty !
 
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