Epic Weapon price Prgression Wrong?

[Glod Glodson]

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Yeah, what's the problem? The system was designed that way to keep balance. A +6 bonus on a weapon is extremely potent in system terms. You're effectively getting a bonus to hit equal to that of 6 levels of fighter on every swing (luckily not base-attack) and the damage bonus alone is the average damage done by a two-handed sword added to the damage the weapon is normally doing (not counting any other magical properties). Ummm... that's alot of damage added on top of what a normal warrior class can do with a NON-magical weapon... and that's the weakest of the epic shiz!
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The problem I have with it is in the sudden huge leap, sure a +6 weapon is potent but it isn't 670,000 gp more potent then a +5 weapon. Consider that with the 720,000 gp you can get either:

a) A +6 weapon

or

b) A +5 Heavly Fortified Set of Mithril Plate mail (100,000), a +5 Vorpal Sword (200,000), A helm of brilliance (200,000), Boots of Speed (slotless 8,000), Boots of Striding and Springing (Slotless 12,000), Boots of Flight, Belt of Strength +6 (36,000), Belt of Dex +6 (72,000), +5 Ring of Deflection (50,000), and other things

I don't think this is a good way to do things.

As a more direct comparison, look at a +8 to wisdom item 640,000, instead of that you could get a +6 wisdom item, a +30 to every wisdom based skill, a +5 to your Will Save (luck) A +5 to your Will Save (Resistance) And still have enough left over to pick up several rings of wishes (just incase you wanted more wisdom)


glod

 

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by Glod Glodson
The problem I have with it is in the sudden huge leap, sure a +6 weapon is potent but it isn't 670,000 gp more potent then a +5 weapon.

Since it requires someone with epic levels (which is extremely rare) to create a +6 or better artifiact weapon (which is what we're talking about here) which are almost primarily made by individuals with power that resides on the verge of godly (and normally used to slay similar foes or even the gods themselves) these weapons become exceedingly valuable and verge on priceless. The Sword of Kas, a +6 unholy keen vorpal longsword, which was used by the vampire Kas to sever the hand and eye of Vecna before suffering destruction at the demigod's hand is a primary example. Again, +6 is the turning point and not only opens you to higher enhancement bonuses, but also to exceeding the +10 weapon power cap. Making an artifact requires parts and pieces far beyond that of normal mortal recovery. You have to realize that the creator doesn't actually use gold pieces to create these things, but the components that the creator must acquire is and the work done is twice the worth the escalating price listed. While a person may have the money and experience to create such a powerful weapon, finding the components themselves or someone who sells them is going to be, undenyably, a heroic venture.

 

[Caliber]

This doesn't really deal with the main point of the thread, but Mr. Binx just made me think of it.

Remember when you were 1st level, and that old-fogey Arch Mage hired you to go find some badger eyeballs?

At Epic Levels YOU are that old fogey, and the 720,000 Gold needed to make a +6 Sword is what you pay all those 1st levels characters to collect eyeballs and other asundry organs from various helpless creatures.

Just something that popped into my head.

 

[Glod Glodson]

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Since it requires someone with epic levels (which is extremely rare) to create a +6 or better artifiact weapon (which is what we're talking about here)
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Quick note (and I know its semantics) but +6 weapons aren't considered artifact level (at least out of Epic Handbook)

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which are almost primarily made by individuals with power that resides on the verge of godly (and normally used to slay similar foes or even the gods themselves) these weapons become exceedingly valuable and verge on priceless. The Sword of Kas, a +6 unholy keen vorpal longsword, which was used by the vampire Kas to sever the hand and eye of Vecna before suffering destruction at the demigod's hand is a primary example. Again, +6 is the turning point and not only opens you to higher enhancement bonuses, but also to exceeding the +10 weapon power cap. Making an artifact requires parts and pieces far beyond that of normal mortal recovery. You have to realize that the creator doesn't actually use gold pieces to create these things, but the components that the creator must acquire is and the work done is twice the worth the escalating price listed. While a person may have the money and experience to create such a powerful weapon, finding the components themselves or someone who sells them is going to be, undenyably, a heroic venture.
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When I said "a +6 weapon is potent but it isn't 670,000 gp more potent then a +5 weapon", I was referring strictly to power, not to components needed, game flavor, rarity or anything else.

I was under the impression that the price of items reflected it's power and usefulness not the components needed (which varies widely from campaign to campaign), that the price was based on balance and usefullness rather then a coolness factor.

A +6 weapon isn't 520,000 gp more useful than a +5 vorpal weapon.



glod

 

[Caliber]

If you really don't like the rule, there is always Rule 0.

However, when you come upon a monster with DR 50/+6, all of your equipment comes to naught when you cannot manage to penetrate the creatures DR.

And of course, at Epic levels, when each encounter nets you a few hundred thousand GPs, it isn't that much. Hope I helped.

 

[BigAl]

The epic level rules are turning out to be a bit dissapointing.

I was hoping that there would be a smooth progression between levels 20 and 20+, but this is not the case.

One of the things I really like(d) about 3e was the mathematical basis: the XP, gold piece awards, BAB, saves, etc. all progressed in a linear (or logarithmic) fashion. Making a character of any level involved simple extrapolation.

This meant that the equations for monster CRs worked out very well (monster CR + monster class levels = adjusted CR). Treasure for these monsters was equally simple to calculate regardless of level.

Now there seems to be a barrier between level 20 and 21. This means that a mage10/ftr10 who takes another level must use a different set of rules. The old ones worked fine as long as no single class level went beyond 20!

This method of gold piece value seems unnecessary and incorrect. Does this mean that treasure and XP calculations are equally scaled beyond 20th? Or is there a new arcane forumla that we must apply to do treaure and XP calculations for epic characters?

- Al

 

[Mr.Binx]

Remember when you were 1st level, and that old-fogey Arch Mage hired you to go find some badger eyeballs?

At Epic Levels YOU are that old fogey, and the 720,000 Gold needed to make a +6 Sword is what you pay all those 1st levels characters to collect eyeballs and other asundry organs from various helpless creatures.

Just something that popped into my head.

lol! That was too wonderfully put, Caliber. Beautiful... Anyhoo, digressing back to the main question of the thread, I like the rules as they are from a DMs stand point, mainly because if I'm going to have an entire party running around with Swords of Kas, I want the bastards to work and bleed for it. I guess you'd have to have been in a DM's shoes to understand where I'm coming from though. Even if you don't DM, read a couple issues of Knights of the Dinner Table and look at what poor B.A. has to go through.

 

[kreynolds]

Everyone. Remember what it was like being 1st level? You couldn't afford anything. You damn near always got your butt kicked. Essentially, you sucked. Welcome to the epic level rules. In regards to the new world around you, you're right back at 1st level. You can't afford anything and you'll damn near get your butt kicked. Just look at the prices in the DMG and compare them to a 1st level character. Now, look at the prices in the ELH and compare them to a 21st level character. See the similarity? Not a big deal folks. Just balancing.

 

[Caliber]

Kinda like that metaphor about being the big fish in the bowl but the small fish in the pond?

Edit: Thanks for the compliment. The idea just kinda jumped out at me all of a sudden.

 

[Crothian]

Everyone. Remember what it was like being 1st level? You couldn't afford anything. You damn near always got your butt kicked. Essentially, you sucked. Welcome to the epic level rules. In regards to the new world around you, you're right back at 1st level. You can't afford anything and you'll damn near get your butt kicked. Just look at the prices in the DMG and compare them to a 1st level character. Now, look at the prices in the ELH and compare them to a 21st level character. See the similarity? Not a big deal folks. Just balancing.

That is one great observation. Keep posting things like this, and Sean will be advertising he's not you.