Equiment vs. Skill in D&D

[Stalker0]

If you want low magic item dnd, you need to play low level dnd.

At those levels, you can make pure skill matter. At higher levels, fighters need their magic to compete with mages. You need to be able to fly and plane shift and the like to handle high level adventures. You need magic weapons to beat DR and the like.

 

[Steverooo]

The system works, as it is. If you want magic without items, here's how...

"Disposable" magic items (potions, scrolls, etc.) work as they do now. If a PC wants a magic weapon, they pay 1,000 GP and gain the ability (through whatever method the GM chooses to utilize) to make any one weapon they hold +1... Now they can have their +1 axe, staff, bow, or all three, one at a time. They want the +1 Adamantine Dwarven Waraxe? No problem! They buy a MW Adamantine Dwarven Waraxe, and when they hold it, it becomes +1!

Now the Ranger with TWF wants another magic weapon? He needs to spend another 1,000 GP, and he can dual-wield +1s. As PCs rise in levels, they can improve their "magic items", just as usual. The Ranger can use his bow as +1, then switch to dual-wielding, be disarmed, and attack with dual +1 fists/kicks. Later, he can spend another 2,000 GP to make one of his weapons +2, and later improve the other one, as well.

As for "slots", you can already combine multiple items in the same slot by paying full price for one, and half price for the additions... so no problem, there. PCs can add to their powers as they see fit, within their wealth guidelines.

This system works as well as the item creation and wealth guidelines in the RAW do. Whether that's a good thing, or not, is a decision that you'll have to make for yourself...

The benefits of this system are that a character's "magic items" become abilities that they have, not so dependent upon their items. A warrior going into battle will still want a weapon, but his bonuses won't depend upon them (just his damage!) (N)PCs' abilities can't be taken away from them (unless they're standard items), and "killing things and taking their stuff" becomes much less important. Also, NPCs can have abilities without magic items, which the PCs can't then take from them, after their defeat.

One downside is that PCs' abilities can't be taken from them, either. Someone who spends the 57,000-or-so GP to become immune to level draining is going to be just that... unless an NPC can Dispel Magic to remove it...

Anyway, as I said, this system works as well as the current rules do, IMO. You can try it and see what you think, for yourselves...

 

[S'mon]

If you want low magic item dnd, you need to play low level dnd.

At those levels, you can make pure skill matter. At higher levels, fighters need their magic to compete with mages. You need to be able to fly and plane shift and the like to handle high level adventures. You need magic weapons to beat DR and the like.

High level Fighters certainly don't need to be able to plane shift, arguably they don't need to be able to fly, but in some campaigns that's a necessity. But they do generally need cool magic gizmos to compete with the mage in kewlness, as well as in smackdown power. I mostly use NPC wealth by level tables for PCs and I find that's enough to let Fighters not be overpowered/overshadowed.

 

[MonsterMash]

Though I feel that items have become more important in 3e than in OD&D(1974)/Basic/1e personally I tend to limit the amount of magic out there by making creation more difficult and costly, so no friendly local magic shops IMC. I do feel 3.5 can be particularly bad for this with the DR rules and the golfbag of weapons this encourages.

I like the Conan RPGs approach, which suits the Hyborian age with low magic and most of that bad magic, but individual heroes are mighty at higher levels.

One thing I am tempted to do is give a way of improving the magic items a character possesses, for example: so that a fighters original +1 sword progresses with him to higher powers. IIRC the item creation system doesn't permit this, if so I'll try and work out a set of houserules and post them to the forum for comment.

 

[Hairfoot]

I have no problem with equipment. The highly-equipped character has been a gnome staple for ages.

Often, an exceptional individual's abilites can only be realised through their equipment. There's little point being a gifted skier if you don't have skis.

True, though, that players can become over-reliant on their magical tools. Hit them with an occasional Mord's Disjunction to help them keep their edge. Otherwise, enforce a monk-only campaign.

 

[S'mon]

One thing I am tempted to do is give a way of improving the magic items a character possesses, for example: so that a fighters original +1 sword progresses with him to higher powers. IIRC the item creation system doesn't permit this, if so I'll try and work out a set of houserules and post them to the forum for comment.

I have items whose power is linked to the power of the wielder - eg the loquacious demonsword Greywand. These linked items are not creatable under the standard DMG magic item rules though, or in any way that PCs are aware of. To learn the secrets of such magic would be a major undertaking involving at best years of study (at worst - what's the market value of a human soul these days?); ie I don't usually need to codify creation costs for PCs for such non-standard magic, any more than I need to codify the cost of making a Deck of Many Things.

Edit: Another example would be the major artifact the Black Spear. I have some tables statting out the item's likely powers at each level, but these are subject to change depending on eg the nature of the wielder; the Black Spear in the hands of the PC Yukio the Godslayer was quite different from the same weapon in the hands of the PC Warmaster Xiang.

Edit2: As far as wealth per level goes, the linked item is best assessed simply at whatever its currently manifested powers would be worth; so the PC's nominal 'wealth' automatically increases as they rise in power.

 

[S'mon]

Though I feel that items have become more important in 3e than in OD&D(1974)/Basic/1e personally I tend to limit the amount of magic out there by making creation more difficult and costly, so no friendly local magic shops IMC. I do feel 3.5 can be particularly bad for this with the DR rules and the golfbag of weapons this encourages.

That's why I use a mix of 3.5 & 3.0 IMC: a devil might have "DR 10/+2 or silver" for instance. Really though, I'm not a big fan of bypassable DR, the whole system seems set up on the assumption the PCs won't fight creature X unless they can bypass its DR, so what's the point? So I downgrade its importance somewhat IMC.

 

[Staffan]

TReally though, I'm not a big fan of bypassable DR, the whole system seems set up on the assumption the PCs won't fight creature X unless they can bypass its DR, so what's the point? So I downgrade its importance somewhat IMC.

That's the 3.0 idea. 3.0 DR was so high that it was pretty much futile to try and punch through it the hard way. However, in 3.5, DR values are usually 5 or 10 points, with occasional 15s, which is a lot easier to punch through rather than bypass (especially with two-handed weapons and power attack). 3.5 assumes you usually won't bypass DR.

 

[Li Shenron]

not too OT...

That's the 3.0 idea. 3.0 DR was so high that it was pretty much futile to try and punch through it the hard way.

I think the 3.0 idea is based on a group of PCs. If you meet a monster with DR x/+3 at appropriate level, some of the PCs have a weapon strong enough to bypass it. Meet it too early and the group is seriously endangered; meet it later and it has no effect. It works a little like a "soft step"

 

[S'mon]

That's the 3.0 idea. 3.0 DR was so high that it was pretty much futile to try and punch through it the hard way. However, in 3.5, DR values are usually 5 or 10 points, with occasional 15s, which is a lot easier to punch through rather than bypass (especially with two-handed weapons and power attack). 3.5 assumes you usually won't bypass DR.

I like this in principle but I'm not a big fan of the golf-bag syndrome; so IMC things tend to be either DR X/- or else easy to bypass needing only enough magic _or_ the right material. An exception is creatures with particular immunities, like a wire golem immune to piercing & bludgeoning weapons.