Equipment and CRs

[Alejandro]

What should be the CR of a 10th level monk without equipment? How about a paladin? How should templates affect the CR?

I think I should drop the CR of the monk (or any other "self-sufficient" type) by a third (to 7) and the paladin (or any equipment-dependent type) by a half (to 5). I think that templates, because they're external to the character, should add their CR modifier afterwards.

What do you think? Did I overlook a guideline?

 

[Arnix]

What should be the CR of a 10th level monk without equipment? How about a paladin? How should templates affect the CR?

I think I should drop the CR of the monk (or any other "self-sufficient" type) by a third (to 7) and the paladin (or any equipment-dependent type) by a half (to 5). I think that templates, because they're external to the character, should add their CR modifier afterwards.

What do you think? Did I overlook a guideline?

This is actually a place of debate between myself and several of my gaming friends. I think that the character's wealth directly affect his or her EL/CR. The amount that it affects the particular character varies by their class.

A fighter without any gear is going to be considerably weaker than a monk or paladin without any gear (in most situations). A cleric without any gear can function at about 75%, a fighter somewhere near 40%, monk 75-80%, wizard (without spellbook) 10%, paladin 50-60% (varies by level), etc.

The same can be said for any PC/NPC/Creature with more than their share of loot. A fighter with a +4 weapon, +5 ful plate, blah blah blah, is much more dangerous than the same fighter with a non-magical weapon, non-magical banded, and a backpack full of waterskins. Also, do not confuse, GP value of items with actual worth. A fighter with a 100k value spellbook is not the same as that fighter with 100k worth of armor and weapons.

The CR/EL system has a lot of variables that must be considered when you are "doing the math".


Cameron Guill
co-Author of "A Question of Honor: A Guidebook to Knights"
Alea Publishing Group
AleaPublishing.com

 

[FrankTrollman]

Technically, equipment does not affect CR or ECL. However, other advantages which are gained in exactly the same manner as magic items (such as lycanthropy) are supposed to be worth CR and/or ECL.

It's a mess. Especially because a Wizard gets virtually nothing from turning into a wereboar and nearly half of a Fighter's power is coming directly or indirectly from the swag he carries around - the current system is counter-intuitive and wrong.

But that's the way it is supposed to work. A 1st level wizard with a Staff of Meteor Swarm with one charge in it is a CR 1. A naked 1st level Wizard who has been turned into a Lycanthrope and then a Wendigo is supposed to be CR 5 - even though he has about 6 hit points and doesn't matter.

-Frank

 

[Li Shenron]

What should be the CR of a 10th level monk without equipment? How about a paladin? How should templates affect the CR?

I think I should drop the CR of the monk (or any other "self-sufficient" type) by a third (to 7) and the paladin (or any equipment-dependent type) by a half (to 5). I think that templates, because they're external to the character, should add their CR modifier afterwards.

What do you think? Did I overlook a guideline?

I suggest you not to try to hard to evaluate the new CR. It would be really tough, and possible doesn't even apply, as FrankTrollman pointed out. I would just see how the combat works and give directly less XP (of course, your problem might be that you are planning to let PCs meet an unequipped villain and want to know which level he should be to be a balanced encounter...).

Remember also that unequipped means no treasure for the PCs.

Anyway, if you think the stripped villain is about 50% of his efficiency (whatever the reason to believe that it makes sense to quantify it ) this doesn't mean CR/2 but rather CR-2, your example CRs are terribly low!
In general, if CR+2 gives double the Xp as the starting CR (just as 2 creatures of the same CR).

 

[Darklone]

I wouldn't care about it either. The stats of a villain might influence his real CR far more than even his equipment (if you roll).