equivalancy table

[JBeatnik]

We're rolling up new characters for a 4th ed campaign. We're using a point buy system, and one of the characters (a druid) is dropping his stats to 7 to game the system. This is especially dangerous in 4th ed, where you can use half your stats for dump stats, while pumping up the useful ones (int over dex for AC, the better of two stats for FRW defences)

My DM is allowing this munchkinism, and I'm trying to find a table that tells what lower and higher stats equate to in real life, so I can point out that a 7 int, 7 cha, 26(ish) wis druid isn't going to be realistic, nor fun to play. I was under the assumption that anything below 8 was seriously handicapped, with 5/6 and below being nigh unplayable.

 

[Trevelyan]

4th Ed doesn't allow for more than one stat at 8 and the rest at 10 as a minimum without house rules. One assumes that situations like this are one fo the reasons - having one weak stat can be interesting, dumping half of every pair for extra ability points is pure munchkin and the DM really should think twice before allowing it.

 

[Flipguarder]

Honestly the way I would do this is allow it, but make additional absurd house-ruled penalties for every stat below 8

below 8 str- cannot wield two-handed weapons/implements or 2 one-handed weapons/implements, cannot climb, and swim with a speed of 1, unable to take any weapon or implement feats.

Below 8 con- immediately hit by all poisons and diseases, 20s just save on death saving throws, only need to fail 2 death saving throws to die. fortitude defense - 3 for every point below 8

Below 8 dex- movement speed drops by 2 for each point below 8, automatically hit by all aoe attacks

Below 8 int- forget one language for each point below 8, if one language known you become illiterate, if already iliterate, you cannot communicate effectively. one less skill training

Below 8 wis - automatically hit by all mind affecting attacks, take a - 5 to passive insight and perception for every point below 8

Below 8 cha - All charisma related checks immediately fail, take -3 to your will defense for every point below 8

 

[Khime]

There doesn't really seem to be a pre-defined equivalency table like I've seen in other games, but you could come up with one by looking at, say, the Monster Manual. A quick search for various INT scores, for instance, gave me some examples:

1 various insects, most zombies
2 most animals
3 trainable animals (horses, rats), skeletons, tarrasque
4 magical beasts (displacer beast, hydra, manticore, etc), ogres
5 ettercap, gargoyle, minotaur, shambling mound
6 troglodytes, pseudodragon, specter, wraith
7 hill giant, grimlock, some constructs
8 orcs

It seems like a lot of monsters get by with 8 or lower INT... if you don't mind being as smart as a shambling mound.

 

[Ryujin]

I won't be easy for this person, if the DM plays it anywhere near reasonable. We've got three party members I have to constantly tell to shut up in negotiations, because they've got 8 in CHA. Our DM usually applies a basic translation filter on anything that they say. For instance...

"I think that it would be in your best interests to help us out. It would be a mutually beneficial arrangement."

...becomes...

"Do what I say, or I'll cut your f$%ing head off."

This has been reinforced so much that those players now generally enter the negotiation process by speaking in this manner, without the DM needing to translate. I can only assume that the words out of the mouth of a 7 CHA character would precipitate the immediate drawing of swords.

Then again, our 18 CHA cleric insulted a king and we were lucky to get out of his keep alive. Yeah, we pretty much only have one "courtly" character (mine).

 

[Eric Finley]

Not to mention that it can be fun to play multiple weak points, as long as you play them up and they're well justified in the character's background.

My Dragonborn Starlock's "background" occurred in play, during the team's first adventure... she started out as an egg, and the egg got trapped in a time-magic 30' diameter orrery (bronze star-position clockwork thing). So she grew to adulthood inside this effect; once, she tried to reach outside of it, and had to pull back as the time effects hit hard on her reaching hands. Once she emerged, she now wears gloves to cover the fact that she has the face & brain of a teenager, the body of a grown woman, and the arms of a withered old crone. So as a result, her Wis 7 feels perfectly natural - she's completely isolated and naive - and her Str 5 just makes for some cool roleplaying opportunities. (The one where she painfully dragged a one-handed pickaxe behind her because she wanted to help dig, then invoked Feverish Certainty of Caiphon and natural-twentied the digging roll, was particularly fabulous.) Either weak point by itself just wouldn't have the same kind of alienation and unworldliness/otherworldliness effect.

So, yes, it's munchkinism if it's done purely for that effect. And Ryujin's suggestion is a very good one. But if the player is capable of doing the "translation" himself, and not stepping outside of the fundamental limits this creates for him, then it's just fun.

(However, by the sounds of things your DM should think about the merits of the Law of Diminishing Returns. There's a reason why 4e's point-buy system gets more and more expensive the higher the numbers get; a +1 to your strong stat simply isn't comparable to a -1 to a random or weak stat. The bump from 17 Wis to 18 Wis is, indeed, worth at least 4x as much to him as the loss from an 8 Cha to a 7 Cha. If your point-buy system isn't reflecting this, then it's simply badly designed and will lead to problems because of that fact. I suggest simply using the default point-buy, but allowing buy-downs below 10 at one-point-per. Arguably it should be only half a point below, say, 7, but this is less important than that the high-end ones go up.)

 

[the Jester]

Jesus, people.

A 7 Intelligence is just as far below average as a 13 is above average. Yet some folks here are acting like you're too stupid to know how to open a door. Come on, guys.

4th Ed doesn't allow for more than one stat at 8 and the rest at 10 as a minimum without house rules.

Where on earth do you get that idea?? From the point buy rules? Those are only one of three different methods of character generation, and rolling is NOT "house rules" at all.

Really now.

 

[the Jester]

Honestly the way I would do this is allow it, but make additional absurd house-ruled penalties for every stat below 8

below 8 str- cannot wield two-handed weapons/implements or 2 one-handed weapons/implements, cannot climb, and swim with a speed of 1, unable to take any weapon or implement feats.

Below 8 con- immediately hit by all poisons and diseases, 20s just save on death saving throws, only need to fail 2 death saving throws to die. fortitude defense - 3 for every point below 8

Below 8 dex- movement speed drops by 2 for each point below 8, automatically hit by all aoe attacks

Below 8 int- forget one language for each point below 8, if one language known you become illiterate, if already iliterate, you cannot communicate effectively. one less skill training

Below 8 wis - automatically hit by all mind affecting attacks, take a - 5 to passive insight and perception for every point below 8

Below 8 cha - All charisma related checks immediately fail, take -3 to your will defense for every point below 8

No offense, but I think you have a serious misapprehension about what the numbers mean when it comes to stats. You're making a low stat the equivalent, essentially, of no stat at all. "Oh, your charisma is 7? You CANNOT, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, talk anyone into anything!"

8 is not the low point of 'human norm'. 3 is. Pcs with low stats already suffer from them- a character with a cha 7 has -2 to charisma checks. That's enough. Making auto fails for any check based on the stat means that nobody that is below average will ever succeed at anything.

 

[Regicide]

My DM is allowing this munchkinism, and I'm trying to find a table that tells what lower and higher stats equate to in real life, so I can point out that a 7 int, 7 cha, 26(ish) wis druid isn't going to be realistic, nor fun to play. I was under the assumption that anything below 8 was seriously handicapped, with 5/6 and below being nigh unplayable.

Dropping 2 stats to 7 buys 6 points. How is he managing to get a 26 wis which would cost 60 or more points on it's own? Are you seriously doing a 50+ pt buy game?

 

[Flipguarder]

No offense, but I think you have a serious misapprehension about what the numbers mean when it comes to stats. You're making a low stat the equivalent, essentially, of no stat at all. "Oh, your charisma is 7? You CANNOT, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, talk anyone into anything!"

8 is not the low point of 'human norm'. 3 is. Pcs with low stats already suffer from them- a character with a cha 7 has -2 to charisma checks. That's enough. Making auto fails for any check based on the stat means that nobody that is below average will ever succeed at anything.

Although yes those were thought of on the spot and could use some work, the point is I put enough detriment for going below 8 that nobody ever wants to without serious repercussions. That way there's a trade off for the fact that they have one more point to min/max with.