D&D 5E Ethics of Killing Vat Spawn?

[Zardnaar]

What's a vat spawn?

Basically creature that are not born but are created in a vat. There are no children may not even have females or gender.

An example are the Giaks from Magnamund. Basically souped up Goblins created in vats and infused with the God of Darkness and evils essence.

A non evil vat spawned Giak would require a wish spell or other magic. They're sentient in terms of feeling pain and being able to think (up to a point) but they can only be created by the servants of the darklords and have very limited free will (essentially none).

Context I'm thinking of vat spawned baddies replacing the usual D&D fodder for a post apocalyptic game.

Giak

Giak

Giaks are humanoid servants of the Darklords. They are not very intelligent, but they are fierce and strong. The Darklords first appeared in Magnamund and began to breed Giaks in MS 3072 . In MS 3262, the Darklords began construction of the city of Helgedad, which eventually claimed the lives of...

lonewolf.fandom.com

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

What's a vat spawn?

Basically creature that are not born but are created in a vat. There are no children may not even have females or gender.

An example are the Giaks from Magnamund. Basically souped up Goblins created in vats and infused with the God of Darkness and evils essence.

A non evil vat spawned Giak would require a wish spell or other magic. They're sentient in terms of feeling pain and being able to think (up to a point) but they can only be created by the servants of the darklords and have very limited free will (essentially none).

Context I'm thinking of vat spawned baddies replacing the usual D&D fodder for a post apocalyptic game.

IMHO, the mode of creation has no bearing on the ethics of killing. With sufficiently advanced technology, we might create an artificial womb at some point and I doubt anyone would consider granting less rights to the children born this way. In a fantasy setting, sentient can be created in very varied way (parthenogenesis, vats, acts of various gods, a wizard using Wish...) and I don't think it has an effect on the ethics of killing things.

I'd have no qualm in killling Giaks, not because they are vat-born but because, as you pointed out, they lack free-will. They are rabid dogs, possessed by an outside force making them incompatible with civilized life. I think killing them should be treated like killing said dogs, acceptable by many -- even if they had baby giaks since they would be basically be like baby xenomorph, irrespective of their mode of conception.

 

[Zardnaar]

IMHO, the mode of creation has no bearing on the ethics of killing. With sufficiently advanced technology, we might create an artificial womb at some point and I doubt anyone would consider granting less rights to the children born this way. In a fantasy setting, sentient can be created in very varied way (parthenogenesis, vats, acts of various gods, a wizard using Wish...) and I don't think it has an effect on the ethics of killing things.

I'd have no qualm in killling Giaks, not because they are vat-born but because, as you pointed out, they lack free-will. They are rabid dogs, possessed by an outside force making them incompatible with civilized life. I think killing them should be treated like killing said dogs, acceptable by many -- even if they had baby giaks since they would be basically be like baby xenomorph, irrespective of their mode of conception.

Interesting. Xenomorphs I would treat as unaligned. They're not evil but their existence is incompatible with most other life forms.

 

[Oofta]

I have no issue with evil monsters, but many people conflate intelligence with complete freedom of will. It's a game.

But that gets threads shut down. I say do whatever makes sense for you and your group and don't worry about what other people say.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have no issue with evil monsters, but many people conflate intelligence with complete freedom of will. It's a game.

But that gets threads shut down. I say do whatever makes sense for you and your group and don't worry about what other people say.

I'm throwing around ideas with group on the next game.

Drawing in ideas of Fallout 4 so yeah being eaten is a thing.

 

[Steampunkette]

I have no issue with evil monsters, but many people conflate intelligence with complete freedom of will. It's a game.

But that gets threads shut down. I say do whatever makes sense for you and your group and don't worry about what other people say.

It's a philosophical question.

Can a computer, which is only allowed a binary choice and cannot make a choice outside of those two options, be considered "Intelligent"?

I'm not talking a vast and wildly varied AI with "Invisible Action" that shapes it's output. I'm talking about a simple binary "Yes/No" function.

If that computer isn't intelligent neither is a creature that -cannot- make moral choices. That cannot choose to do things outside of it's programming... Which, in turn, is the big problem people have with Determinism. If the universe is set on rails (Whether by physics or a deity) and we cannot make choices is intelligence even a "Thing" or are all of our actions and apparent reactions no more meaningful than a computer running a series of programs with any apparent intelligence coming not from choices on our part but only through mechanical functions of reality independent of any input from a thinking being.

For a creature to have Intelligence it must have Free Will. Otherwise it is no more sapient than the computer answering a question Yes and No, but never Maybe.

And that's not even getting into the Ham sandwich of applying a moral judgement or position to an entire group of people, and then declaring it is reinforced by magic/god/laws of reality/phrenology/whatever as a Social Issue.

 

[Zardnaar]

Oh forgot.

Giak

Giaks are humanoid servants of the Darklords. They are not very intelligent, but they are fierce and strong. The Darklords first appeared in Magnamund and began to breed Giaks in MS 3072 . In MS 3262, the Darklords began construction of the city of Helgedad, which eventually claimed the lives of...

lonewolf.fandom.com

 

[Steampunkette]

Here's another very relevant question:

Do they have a Soul?

In a setting where gods and planes and an afterlife all exist, particularly one where morality determines the fate of your immortal soul, being an always evil creature means you -will- go to Hell and there's no middle ground. You are created, from birth, to go directly to Hell to be tormented forever.

Based on your setting's particular hell-interpretation, at least.

Whole other form of Existential Horror on top of everything else -and- the Ham Sandwich social issue.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here's another very relevant question:

Do they have a Soul?

In a setting where gods and planes and an afterlife all exist, particularly one where morality determines the fate of your immortal soul, being an always evil creature means you -will- go to Hell and there's no middle ground. You are created, from birth, to go directly to Hell to be tormented forever.

Based on your setting's particular hell-interpretation, at least.

Whole other form of Existential Horror on top of everything else -and- the Ham Sandwich social issue.

From memory they didn't have a soul.

I think the protagonist or Vonotar looked deep into the darklords or Giaks and they don't have souls just the essence of the god of darkness.

They're essentially meat puppets that while somewhat intelligent don't really have free will.

Some of the other servants it's a lot less clear.

Their world is the last one left in the cosmic balance between good and evil.

 

[Oofta]

If a setting has intelligent creatures that are effectively always evil (i.e. demons), then it's just fluff that differentiates them.