Ethnic groups
- Thread starter Kilmore
- Start date
Azure Trance
First Post
Re: Re: Ethnic groups
Eh ... in fantasy D&D terms? If I gave stereotypes* to races, it's for white people (which is European, including Spanish; at least back in the Medieval/Ren times). Italians are a common one I've seen often. They trade and are born merchants. +2 CHA. They need to be balanced though ... hm ... their love of money tends to make them short sighted. -2 WIS. Voila.
Black people (or, people of heavy melanin content) wouldn't really just be a 'single' ethnicity as they would be stereotyped today. They'd get the same options as people of any other pigmentation. Although, I don't know much about African history as I do European so I couldn't offer as many colorful and varied choices (real world ethnicities which can be identified with). Off the top of my head, there could be an rugged desert nomads (+2 WIS?), or great civilization builders in the jungle (+2 INT?). Etc. As Europe had different people so did Africa.
If someone wanted to play a half black half asian though ... I'd give them the baseline human
Edit
*Not negative stereotypes, but how they were pictured and can be converted to D&D. Italians really were common merchants, but no, they weren't really short sighted. Anybody playing them would understand that their playing psuedo-Italians and just have to be balanced out without any harm meant when they get a negative attribute. Same for Germanic, English, French, Spanish, or Russians.
KitanaVorr said:
Eh ... in fantasy D&D terms? If I gave stereotypes* to races, it's for white people (which is European, including Spanish; at least back in the Medieval/Ren times). Italians are a common one I've seen often. They trade and are born merchants. +2 CHA. They need to be balanced though ... hm ... their love of money tends to make them short sighted. -2 WIS. Voila.
Black people (or, people of heavy melanin content) wouldn't really just be a 'single' ethnicity as they would be stereotyped today. They'd get the same options as people of any other pigmentation. Although, I don't know much about African history as I do European so I couldn't offer as many colorful and varied choices (real world ethnicities which can be identified with). Off the top of my head, there could be an rugged desert nomads (+2 WIS?), or great civilization builders in the jungle (+2 INT?). Etc. As Europe had different people so did Africa.
If someone wanted to play a half black half asian though ... I'd give them the baseline human
Edit
*Not negative stereotypes, but how they were pictured and can be converted to D&D. Italians really were common merchants, but no, they weren't really short sighted. Anybody playing them would understand that their playing psuedo-Italians and just have to be balanced out without any harm meant when they get a negative attribute. Same for Germanic, English, French, Spanish, or Russians.
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Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
I think skill emphasis is a great way to go.
Both Swashbuckling Adventures and Rokugan did great jobs with this.
Basically any human character who want to claim the advantages of any Culture gives up two of the four first level bonus points and gets two free class skills. So if you grew up on the great steppe with the Horse Lords and learned how to ride alongside learning how to walk, then you can always put points into that skill at 1 for 1 even if you're fighter. It's something you're always doing and training for since you're always going to approach life with Horse Lord passions and practices.
Ethnicity shouldn't really have as large an effect as culture in any evaluation of humans in a fantasy setting. Unless you are dealing with a conception of humans that is radically different from the traditional as well as the real world, then the primary human attribute should be a certain level of adaptability and flexibility based on short lives combined with a fair amount of larger success and mobility.
Most of the subraces of elves and whatnot differ from each other either in fairly subtle ways or in ways that make sense given a radically different environment and evolution.
In the real world ethnicities are so genetically diverse that the variety is just as great within one as without. There are a very few exceptions, like all the traits that leap the curve in Basques.
The only modern culture that lives in such an extreme situation that it would merit an ability bonus might be Andeans or Himalayans who develop extreme lung capacities. Though I don't know if that advantage dissapears if people are transplanted to lowland areas, or if it's really general enough to net a constitution bonus.
If you were concerned about Barbarians having greater physical ability, you might just rule that the average is higher for that culture given a survival rate that will weed out those who are born with lower stats.
Both Swashbuckling Adventures and Rokugan did great jobs with this.
Basically any human character who want to claim the advantages of any Culture gives up two of the four first level bonus points and gets two free class skills. So if you grew up on the great steppe with the Horse Lords and learned how to ride alongside learning how to walk, then you can always put points into that skill at 1 for 1 even if you're fighter. It's something you're always doing and training for since you're always going to approach life with Horse Lord passions and practices.
Ethnicity shouldn't really have as large an effect as culture in any evaluation of humans in a fantasy setting. Unless you are dealing with a conception of humans that is radically different from the traditional as well as the real world, then the primary human attribute should be a certain level of adaptability and flexibility based on short lives combined with a fair amount of larger success and mobility.
Most of the subraces of elves and whatnot differ from each other either in fairly subtle ways or in ways that make sense given a radically different environment and evolution.
In the real world ethnicities are so genetically diverse that the variety is just as great within one as without. There are a very few exceptions, like all the traits that leap the curve in Basques.
The only modern culture that lives in such an extreme situation that it would merit an ability bonus might be Andeans or Himalayans who develop extreme lung capacities. Though I don't know if that advantage dissapears if people are transplanted to lowland areas, or if it's really general enough to net a constitution bonus.
If you were concerned about Barbarians having greater physical ability, you might just rule that the average is higher for that culture given a survival rate that will weed out those who are born with lower stats.
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Dr. Strangemonkey said:
Ethnicity is about identification with a particular Culture so really they are essentially inseperable.
However what I think you and most in this thread are saying is that Ethnicity and Culture are NOT 'biological' in nature and so should not involve any modification of Physical/Mental Abilities.
That said I think the idea of Skill bonuses and even bonus Feats are a good way of creating 'culture groups'.
An example
Tahiti and Hiva (the Marquesas). Both peoples are polynesian and share many cultural similarities. However
The Tahitians were considered to be a civilised genteel people much inclined towards the Arts. They had a highly stratified society where Nobles and Commoners were strictly sperated
The Hiva people were considered to be savage and warlike, engaged in incessant inter tribal warfare and known also to raid others. The society was not so strictly stratified as Tahiti and leadership was often in the hands of Warlords rather than hereditary 'Chiefs/Kings'
Tahitians - Favoured class Bard +2 Diplomacy, +2 Knowledge (Any)
Hivans - Favoured class Barbarian Bonus Feat: Endurance
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Azure Trance
First Post
Reminds me of one more thing from IKCG: Each ethnicity has a favored class. If that class is taken at first level a special, but minor bonus is given, ranging from a MW weapon, a guild contact, a small stipend, etc. Another small push to encourage certain roles within groups.
Darkness
Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
Oriental Advantures does something similar, with class skills and favored classes depending on which of the seven clans you come from.Eosin the Red said:
Another good (albeit not broadly useful) method to differentiate cultures from one another is prestige classes.
Also, simple style goes a long way: Typical cultural weapons, fighting styles (read: feat combinations), spells, etc.
Re
Ability bonuses should not apply to humans, If you feel an ability should be different than you should simply place your best ability score in the one you think would be most prized in that particular ethnic group. Human maximums should still be the same across the board.
As far as the original question, I think the class structure (As in what areas favor certain classes) and regional feat system in the FRCS is an excellent example of how to delineate ethnic differences between humans.
Ability bonuses should not apply to humans, If you feel an ability should be different than you should simply place your best ability score in the one you think would be most prized in that particular ethnic group. Human maximums should still be the same across the board.
As far as the original question, I think the class structure (As in what areas favor certain classes) and regional feat system in the FRCS is an excellent example of how to delineate ethnic differences between humans.
Golandrinel
First Post
Celtavian - Why? Obviously mental faculties would not be influenmced as well as charisma but with physical attributes .... Some racial groups tend to be larger than others. Americans and Germans, for instance & in my experience, tend to be bigger than the British. So why could you not give them a higher strength, on average?
Tsyr
Explorer
I handle it more or less like the WoT system... skills and bonus feats, not physical stat changes, as a rule.
Why? Because as a rule, I don't see why there would be much physical stat changing. Humans are, essentialy, humans. Skills and such reflect the cultural upbringing. I'm far from PC... Ask someone who knows me. Has nothing to do with being PC, I just don't buy that culture effects physical stats that much.
To use the earlier example, I would give a person from a pseudo-italy probably a +2 bonus to diplomacy and bluff, make prof: Merchant an automatic class skill, and let them select from a couple of feats that are somehow related as a first level bonus feat that other cultures might not get to pick from.
Now, I said that I don't do it as a rule. There are a few exceptions. There are cases where culture might effect physical stats. I have a group of people on my world who are nomads... they move somewhere, camp, hunt and gather until the resources are used up, then move on. They lead a very hard life, and their culture is fairly demanding too. Result? They get a +2 con bonus. You have to be tough to survive among these people. Those with a frail constituion just don't live long, normaly dieing in childhood. If I had a race of arctic barbarians (I don't) I might do the same thing, because of the difficulty of life there. Or at least give them a bonus to any save regarding a cold effect.
Why? Because as a rule, I don't see why there would be much physical stat changing. Humans are, essentialy, humans. Skills and such reflect the cultural upbringing. I'm far from PC... Ask someone who knows me. Has nothing to do with being PC, I just don't buy that culture effects physical stats that much.
To use the earlier example, I would give a person from a pseudo-italy probably a +2 bonus to diplomacy and bluff, make prof: Merchant an automatic class skill, and let them select from a couple of feats that are somehow related as a first level bonus feat that other cultures might not get to pick from.
Now, I said that I don't do it as a rule. There are a few exceptions. There are cases where culture might effect physical stats. I have a group of people on my world who are nomads... they move somewhere, camp, hunt and gather until the resources are used up, then move on. They lead a very hard life, and their culture is fairly demanding too. Result? They get a +2 con bonus. You have to be tough to survive among these people. Those with a frail constituion just don't live long, normaly dieing in childhood. If I had a race of arctic barbarians (I don't) I might do the same thing, because of the difficulty of life there. Or at least give them a bonus to any save regarding a cold effect.
Re
As I stated, if you notice this difference on average, then distribute your best attributes according to how you see that difference.
But, just because on average Germans are bigger than Britons, that does not mean that a Briton cannot be equally as strong as a German. For example, if you take the strongest Briton and the strongest German, will their be a significant difference? I say no, there won't.
I in fact have an English friend, though he says he is mixed Irish/Welsh/English, who is 240lbs at 5'5" and deadlifts in excess of 500 lbs, bench presses over 400 lbs, and squats over 700 lbs. He is not a professional power lifter nor does he use any steroids. He is all natural and was born and raised in England.
Physical differences between humans just aren't significant enough to warrant a bonus or penalty to stats.
As I stated, if you notice this difference on average, then distribute your best attributes according to how you see that difference.
But, just because on average Germans are bigger than Britons, that does not mean that a Briton cannot be equally as strong as a German. For example, if you take the strongest Briton and the strongest German, will their be a significant difference? I say no, there won't.
I in fact have an English friend, though he says he is mixed Irish/Welsh/English, who is 240lbs at 5'5" and deadlifts in excess of 500 lbs, bench presses over 400 lbs, and squats over 700 lbs. He is not a professional power lifter nor does he use any steroids. He is all natural and was born and raised in England.
Physical differences between humans just aren't significant enough to warrant a bonus or penalty to stats.
