European markets and d20 publishers - a little survey

[Mark]

I certainly can't answer these questions from the perspective of an established publisher, but as a burgeoning d20 pub, I'll do what I can...

1) What is your opinion about European markets regarding D&D/d20 products in general?

Wide open and largely unsupported from the feedback that I have seen. I believe there is quite a bit that can be done to shore up that disparity.

2) Do European markets have a significant share of your overall sales?

Not quite selling yet, but I believe it is possible.

3) Do you work directly with European wholesalers or are your company's products sold to European markets via US
wholesalers (such as the Diamond/Alliance conglomerate)?

As a PDF product publisher, I self-distribute, with a number of free offerings currently available and some salable products in the works. I'm finding that my items to date are being downloaded about 80% USA/UK and 20% elsewhere.

4) Do you have (or had) any specific policies targeting European markets?

I've instituted a translation project that is gaining some headway. It has possibilities of maybe supporting itself in the long term.

5) Do you have any translation agreements with European publishers?

I'm working with individual volunteers, at this time, who see some merit in what I am trying to achieve. If things become successful in that regard, I will continue to work with those who have supported the project and expand as (and per their advice) the demands of the project warrant.

6) Were translations of your company's products successful?

Too soon to determined but I am hopeful.

7) When you plan a product, do you consider of significant importance the fact it could be sold outside the US and that it could be translated in a foreign language?

Absolutely.

8) Have you ever seen original European d20 products in non English language?

As (American) English is my primary language, I've not had much experience in this area. I did see Agone at GenCon last year and that, from what I hear, is a very successful French language RPG.

9) Have you ever considered the idea of having European authors working on your company's products?

Again, as a small company, I am the primary author. With more than 25 years of notes, maps and campaign-setting building, I am likely to remain the primary author. I have, though, already credited (in one of my free downloads) the supporting authorship of another individual who worked along side of myself on that specific offering. I'm sure this will occur again in the furture and include co-authors from places world-wide.

10) Do you see, in the long term, an integrated US-EU gaming market?

Absolutely. Again, I'm in the positiopn to not have the two major obstacles that print publishers see. I don't have to concern myself with distribution or the added costs of printing products in additional languages. This makes the possibility of an integrated market for CMG a much more likely prospect.

I hope that helps your research.

 

[Cergorach]

Re: Holland

Because of this and the fact that distributers raise the price significantly (expect to pay twice the $ price in Euro's for your product!!) most gamers AND shops order directly from on-line gameshops in the USA!!! There is almost no language barrier as English is our second language and RPG's are for the more educated anyway.

Erm.. Don't know to what kind of shop you go to but RPG material is about $ x 1.1€, with taxes, exchange rate, and shipping, you'll end up paying more from an US online retailer than going to your local store. I think that you mean that US online retailers give a massive discount (about 30%max) and most stores give a discount of 10%max. There are some dutch online retailers that give a discount (i even know of one that gives 20% off on all RPG material), but nearly as many as the american market has.

Do they sell by thousands? No. But there is a market for a few hundred maybe, if the product is good and people now it's good!

I know the interest to know is there, because I own/maintain a Dutch-language website on gaming and EVERY review of an RPG product gets at least 100/150 reads by Dutch viewers/month. I know that my local gamestore gets requests for these items and I know of at least a few people who order them directly. When we do a demo-session at the gamestore, attendance is high and reactions positive.

I think your wrong, rpg material translated to dutch was never meant for the established roleplayers, it was targeted at new potential players (remember the old red D&D box, or "Het Oog Des Meesters"?). It was tried a couple of times, but it didn't last long before the line would be discontinued. Even the dutch translation of a german game did better than the dutch translation of D&D. Why is that do you hink, well... Simple actually, for the average roleplayer, english is a simpler language than german. Thus why buy a game that is already six+ months old in your own uncool language if you already have it in perfectly good english...

Conclusion: As for Holland, there IS a market, but only WOTC succefully penetrated to gameshops, ONLY because of it's name. People just need a little push to try and order from other companies...

Translations wouldn't be worthwile for publishers unless they would spend a large amount of money to push it into mainstream Rpgs do have the potential to become mainstream here in holland, the dutch translation of das swartze auge was sold in Intertoys (is about the same thing when D&D gets sold in Toys are Us, where i believe it is sold as well these days). I do believe that many english D20 products could sell a lot better if the distributors would carry them and in turn the retailers. Ps-games one of the largest (if not THE largest) rpg game distributor in holland, is improving in that regard, they are carrying more and more different publishers, a good development i would say...

ps. I'm sorry if i misinterpereted abything, i've just come home froma twelfe hour working day after a five hour night ;-)

 

[Frank]

Re: Re: Holland

Erm.. Don't know to what kind of shop you go to but RPG material is about $ x 1.1?, with taxes, exchange rate, and shipping, you'll end up paying more from an US online retailer than going to your local store.

Well, if I look for example at the 3E Manual of the Planes... I can buy that for $24 on-line from America but had to buy it in my local gamestore for ?36. And, mind you, that one is distributed by WOTC Belgium not directly to Holland, but first to another distributor and then to the gameshops.

The only real Dutch mail-order company that I know of, www.trof.nl, has products from many D20 companies, and they sell indeed dor $ x 1.1 BUT prepare to wait 3-4 weeks for your order as they collect orders and then buy them cheaper in the US...

Order them through your gameshop and you will have them quicker but you'll really pay almost twice at much!

I think your wrong, rpg material translated to dutch was never meant for the established roleplayers, it was targeted at new potential players (remember the old red D&D box, or "Het Oog Des Meesters"?). It was tried a couple of times, but it didn't last long before the line would be discontinued. Even the dutch translation of a german game did better than the dutch translation of D&D. Why is that do you hink, well... Simple actually, for the average roleplayer, english is a simpler language than german. Thus why buy a game that is already six+ months old in your own uncool language if you already have it in perfectly good english...

I think that's the best point. It just doesn't sound cool. I DO think that 1 intoductory box in your own language would be helpfull to get new players. I have been converted by the old D&D red box in Dutch, but quickly after switched to the English modules, because, well, Thief just sounds better than Dief... and that's with most gameterms! As most 10 year olds speak and read English very well already, you only have to make the first step easier with a Dutch edition, that could very well be in the Toys 'r Us stores!

I do believe that many english D20 products could sell a lot better if the distributors would carry them and in turn the retailers. Ps-games one of the largest (if not THE largest) rpg game distributor in holland, is improving in that regard, they are carrying more and more different publishers, a good development i would say...

I agree. Like I said, I *know* there is a market, but people need to see more products in-store or better info about them to order them directly, because there are so many products out there. People do tend to get what they know...;-)

Frank

 

[Cergorach]

Re: Re: Re: Holland

Well, if I look for example at the 3E Manual of the Planes... I can buy that for $24 on-line from America but had to buy it in my local gamestore for ?36. And, mind you, that one is distributed by WOTC Belgium not directly to Holland, but first to another distributor and then to the gameshops.

The only real Dutch mail-order company that I know of, www.trof.nl, has products from many D20 companies, and they sell indeed dor $ x 1.1 BUT prepare to wait 3-4 weeks for your order as they collect orders and then buy them cheaper in the US...

Order them through your gameshop and you will have them quicker but you'll really pay almost twice at much!

I just took a look at my records and your right €36 for PotP, but that's months ago, it's now at about €34.73. That's because of the rising Euro, a couple of months ago you would have payer more Euro per Dollar. WotC prices are currently at $ x 1.15€.

Also i'm guessing that the $24 is without shipping, shipping is at least $6 and it takes 2-4 weeks to arrive, it can be delivered quicker, but you'll pay for it. Thus the price you payed is somewhere around ($24 + $6) x 1.06 [taxes] = €31.80. Although still cheaper than €36, it's IMHO not worth the hassle...

I think that's the best point. It just doesn't sound cool. I DO think that 1 intoductory box in your own language would be helpfull to get new players. I have been converted by the old D&D red box in Dutch, but quickly after switched to the English modules, because, well, Thief just sounds better than Dief... and that's with most gameterms! As most 10 year olds speak and read English very well already, you only have to make the first step easier with a Dutch edition, that could very well be in the Toys 'r Us stores!

That's why i said that D20 publisher would have to heavily invest in a dutch market before seeing any return. It would have to be a very good translation, we're not really wanting translations such as where used by the dutch version of Heroquest ;-)

I agree. Like I said, I *know* there is a market, but people need to see more products in-store or better info about them to order them directly, because there are so many products out there. People do tend to get what they know...;-)

I agree and the distributors are also comming around, but i don't think you'll see many stores carrying everything, it takes to much shelf space and it's a pretty big risk to take...

What would you suggest for a dutch online store to improve customer awareness of products?

ps. Frank if your interested i'm trying to carry everything by WotC, WW D20 and AEG D20 at a 20% € discount. I'll be expanding, the lines i'll carry, mostly based on what people want. If you are interested contact me at R.van.Vliet@TheHelix.nl
pps. my site is very out of date, i'm bussy with configuring an online shop, but i've been working 6 day weeks for some time now thus i do not have as much time to spend on it as i would like. I'll update it soon...

 

[Eugene Zee]

European Market

Ciro,

Sorry I am late posting, I hope you get a chance to read this.

I admire your line of questioning but do think that publishers want to maintain their confidence. That being said, here goes...

We are embarking on a european "project" now and the my answers to your questions will be based on the info we are working from.

From what we have seen in our research into the d20 market, europe is an underdeveloped area. The market definitely can be expanded by publishers but that entails a lot of hard work and an understanding of the challenges that the european market presents. There are a few companies that do really well in the english speaking part of the euro market but very few in the non-english speaking countries.

We do not plan for european sales to significantly impact our bottom line immediately but eventually we expect to significantly enhance our revenues with them.

We may enter into translation agreements for larger products but we have an office and a representative in place in a non-english country that can facilitate much of the conversion process for europe.

We call it a conversion process because often it is not just a translation, the artwork, style and layout of the book may change. For example, in France (one of the largest non-english markets) the books generally have a higher production quality, more elaborate artwork and their systems and stories often differ in style from ours, reflecting a different feel to their games. That is a major challenge, to convert your product from a product that will do well in the US to a product that will do well in France by using subtle changes.

We definitely plan for every product that we release in physical form to eventually be transformed into a multilingual product.

We are not adverse to the idea of having european writers work for us but it would depend on the situation.

We don't see a really well integrated marketplace for some time. The cultural differences and logistical difficulties will hamper that until enough demand is evidenced by the publishers to generate the creation of processes and services that make conversions easier and less expensive.

Regards,
Eugene Zee
Dark Nebulae
www.darknebulae.com

 

[Eugene Zee]

Clarification

Actually, let me be more specific about that last paragraph. There can be a reasonably integrated d20 community in the US and europe within the next 18-24 months, with licensing and other methods of conversion. However, certain things have to happen before that can be. WotC has to release the DMG in multiple languages, then high quality products have to be introduced to the marketplace by publishers willing to take the risk for the long payoff. After the market population has grown then we can see a range and variety of products available. Before that even using foreign licensing options will not work for most companies. There are only so many good licensing companies and they are not going start to take the majority of d20 products until they feel there is an adequate demand.

Regards,