D&D 5E Evaluating the warlord-y Fighter

[I'm A Banana]

I don't think it's healthy to expect designers to cater to the desires of a person or group of people who self-define as being completely unwilling to compromise.

It's simply a matter of the value one gets out of that compromise -- compromise to what end? It's entirely possible to have an enjoyable night with friends without D&D. And if playing D&D requires some sort of compromise (beyond the usual time and dedication required to even enjoy it in the first place), it'll have to be worth that compromise.

And spending the night being ineffective or not being the character you want to be is typically not worth that compromise.

 

[Rygar]

so do you believe that it would harm your play style if they built a better warlord for those of us that want them?

Quite honestly, and I don't mean this rudely, I would drop 5th edition immediately. The 4th edition Warlord's abilities essentially require you to play with Schrodinger's Hit Points and Schrodinger's Combat, where no one can say what happened during combat or during hit point loss until after the HP's are regained because the method of regaining them dictates the origin of the HP loss. The Warlord's other abilities aren't much better, boosting combat abilities because you can see someone is equally problematic. I find that the Warlord significantly changes the nature of the game to a type of game I do not like.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Quite honestly, and I don't mean this rudely, I would drop 5th edition immediately. The 4th edition Warlord's abilities essentially require you to play with Schrodinger's Hit Points and Schrodinger's Combat,

not true... you could say that is how you CHOOSE to play with said things, but nothing requires it...

Infact I (an avid 4e player who has DMed 3 groups and played in about a dozen) have never once seen that way used at the table...ever.

where no one can say what happened during combat or during hit point loss until after the HP's are regained because the method of regaining them dictates the origin of the HP loss.

nope...

The Warlord's other abilities aren't much better, boosting combat abilities because you can see someone is equally problematic. I find that the Warlord significantly changes the nature of the game to a type of game I do not like.

The only thing I find it changes is it allows me to tell the stories and have the feel of my 2e and 3e settings without having to reliy on Divine magic...



just to be clear, in 2e, 3e, 4e, Myth and Magic, Rifts, Dead Lands, and my home brew I describe hits and misses the exact same way... Partialy as wear and tear with near misses, and a lot of hard hits that are problely harder then an HP system is ment for, and the occasional over the top description...

System Egnotsic example:
Player 1: I hit a 18
DM: You cleave through the shield and land a glancing blow on the Orc's shoulder.
DM: I hit a 23
Player: Yea, that's almost 10 over my AC...
DM: He swings his war hammer and crashes it on your left side dislocating your shoulder for moment, and reminding you why armor saves your life...

 

[Rygar]

not true... you could say that is how you CHOOSE to play with said things, but nothing requires it...

Infact I (an avid 4e player who has DMed 3 groups and played in about a dozen) have never once seen that way used at the table...ever.

nope...

The only thing I find it changes is it allows me to tell the stories and have the feel of my 2e and 3e settings without having to reliy on Divine magic...



just to be clear, in 2e, 3e, 4e, Myth and Magic, Rifts, Dead Lands, and my home brew I describe hits and misses the exact same way... Partialy as wear and tear with near misses, and a lot of hard hits that are problely harder then an HP system is ment for, and the occasional over the top description...

System Egnotsic example:
Player 1: I hit a 18
DM: You cleave through the shield and land a glancing blow on the Orc's shoulder.
DM: I hit a 23
Player: Yea, that's almost 10 over my AC...
DM: He swings his war hammer and crashes it on your left side dislocating your shoulder for moment, and reminding you why armor saves your life...

Actually, you're absolutely required to play with Schrodinger's HP and Combat.

If I lose HP's in a battle no one can explain what happened to cause my HP loss until we know the source of HP recovery. If I recover HP's by drinking a Potion of Healing or by having a Cleric cast Cure Wounds, then I could only have been hit and I could only have been wounded because Healing and Wounds are the direct products of physical injury. If I recover HP's by a Warlord talking to me, then I can only be fatigued, I cannot be wounded, because talking doesn't heal wounds but it might give someone an adrenalin flow to let them recover from fatigue.

Your example written in a system where the Warlord is present:
System Egnotsic example:
Player 1: I hit a 18
DM: You cleave through the shield and land a glancing blow on the Orc's shoulder.
DM: I hit a 23
Player: Yea, that's almost 10 over my AC...
DM: He swings his war hammer at you and something happens causing you to lose...10 HP!
Player: What do you mean? What happened?
DM: Well, either he hit you and wounded you or you dodged out of the way and became fatigued. We won't know which until we determine how you recover the HP, because the methods of HP recovery all are either wounds or fatigue but never both. After the battle when you recover the HP ask me what happened and I'll tell you if you were hit or if you dodged.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Actually, you're absolutely required to play with Schrodinger's HP and Combat.

you are wrong, that is a common false argument from people who dislike 4e, but it is not how most 4e players play it... I have heard people play it that way, but have never seen it...even at cons.

If I lose HP's in a battle no one can explain what happened to cause my HP loss until we know the source of HP recovery.

the same way it did every other edition...and every other hp game/

If I recover HP's by drinking a Potion of Healing or by having a Cleric cast Cure Wounds, then I could only have been hit and I could only have been wounded because Healing and Wounds are the direct products of physical injury. If I recover HP's by a Warlord talking to me, then I can only be fatigued, I cannot be wounded, because talking doesn't heal wounds but it might give someone an adrenalin flow to let them recover from fatigue.

um sorry not seeing it, again look at my example... here is one from my 4e game where I ran with BOTH a cleric AND a warlord so either could heal the target...

DM: I hit a 19
Player 1: Yup...still an 18, like before
DM: Ok, the spear slices your leg 12 damage
next round
DM: Two hobgoblins hit, one crit... the first spear flips around and trips you the second one jams into your left arm.
Player 2: On my turn I'll use inspireing word "Hey, no laying down on the job..." then attack with XXXXXX

Your example written in a system where the Warlord is present:
System Egnotsic example:
Player 1: I hit a 18
DM: You cleave through the shield and land a glancing blow on the Orc's shoulder.
DM: I hit a 23
Player: Yea, that's almost 10 over my AC...
DM: He swings his war hammer at you and something happens causing you to lose...10 HP!
Player: What do you mean? What happened?

there is no player or DM at any table who LIKEs 4e playing this way... it is a strawman...

DM: Well, either he hit you and wounded you or you dodged out of the way and became fatigued. We won't know which until we determine how you recover the HP, because the methods of HP recovery all are either wounds or fatigue but never both. After the battle when you recover the HP ask me what happened and I'll tell you if you were hit or if you dodged.

any DM who says this is trying to be a jerk and "Prove" why 4e doesn't work... no one plays this way... no one no where

 

[Warbringer]

Yeah... This is really not edition warring ...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

what 4e did do was make a new way to 'heal' inspiration, and I always looked at Spiderman Maximum Carnage to explain it...

Spiderman gets beat up ALOT, but there are different ways to get him back up. (Heck it only takes him a couple of days to heal abroken arm... if anything says 4e healing) but there are two different ways to get him back up... and neither depends on what knocked him down.

Dagger can use bright white light to magically close his wounds, she does so once or twice... each time he is healed and back in action... HP restored AND wounds closed

Captain America put his hand out and says "You look like you could use a hand son." no cuts close, no bruses go away, but he gets up and goes right back to fighting at full force. He hasn't healed any wounds... but he has healed HP.


With a warlord in your party you just during your short rest wrap your wounds, and explain he made you push past it... with a cleric the gods bless you with closed wounds...

 

[Zalabim]

The Battle Master is at best a fighter multiclassed into leader abilities, but it isn't the warlord or the tactical mastermind, for me. The fighter is about personal skill with arms and armor, and I can see that the battle master extends that to skill with a tool and evaluating the skill of others. It's a great fighter and even has some potential to be an inspiring presence on the battlefield. It has too much personal glory features baked in from the default Fighter features to suddenly become a support character.

There is a warlord hiding in the MM too. It's the Knight. Aside from bravery and its greatsword, it makes its presence in battle felt with:

Leadership (Recharges after a Short or Long Rest). For 1 minute, the knight can utter a special command or warning whenever a non hostile creature that it can see within 30 feet of it makes an attack roll or a saving throw. The creature can add a d4 to its roll provided it can hear and understand the knight. A creature can benefit from only one Leadership die at a time. This effect ends if the knight is incapacitated.
Leadership is Bless.
Bless
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You bless up to three creatures of your choice within range. Whenever a target makes an attack roll or a saving throw before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the attack roll or saving throw.

That is how a leader supports on the battlefield.

Lastly, because I don't expect this post to lead to anything other than personal satisfaction in the first place, @Shrodinger's HP. Power Word Heal restores all of the target's HP with a wave of healing energy. A Long Rest restores all of a character's HP as well as half of their maximum Hit Dice. Any wound that cure wounds can heal is no worse than what can heal in one night's rest.

 

[DEFCON 1]

There is a warlord hiding in the MM too. It's the Knight. Aside from bravery and its greatsword, it makes its presence in battle felt with:

Leadership (Recharges after a Short or Long Rest). For 1 minute, the knight can utter a special command or warning whenever a non hostile creature that it can see within 30 feet of it makes an attack roll or a saving throw. The creature can add a d4 to its roll provided it can hear and understand the knight. A creature can benefit from only one Leadership die at a time. This effect ends if the knight is incapacitated.
Leadership is Bless.
Bless
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You bless up to three creatures of your choice within range. Whenever a target makes an attack roll or a saving throw before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the attack roll or saving throw.

That is how a leader supports on the battlefield.

If this mechanic was the only requirement, a player could just take Bless with the Magic Initiate feat and strip away the god-blessing fluff to replace it with leadership fluff. But it's been apparently determined that refluffing divine magic as martial exploits doesn't count when trying to be a "true" Warlord-- despite the mechanics working fine to accomplish it.

 

[Jester David]

Something I've seen kicking around for a couple years now:


And from one of the earlier times this exact same conversation popped up: