Evard's Black Tentacles NEW QUESTION post #5!
- Thread starter Aluvial
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Jhulae
First Post
Rashak Mani said:
Um.. cast by a mage at the same level as a barbarian, the tentacles only have +3 to +5 over him, assuming the barbarian has str 12-18 and may or may not be raging. It's the same type of grapple check any large creature would have, such as a tendriculus (sp), hill giant, etc. That's hardly 'way too strong.'
If you roll poorly, that's definitely unfortunate, yes.. but that's by no means the spell's fault. You colud roll just as poorly against a purple worm and be swallowed. I think that'd be much worse, really.
Jhulae said:
I had this same argument with my dm who thought the spell was too strong. But he did point out its an area effect, a purple worm grapples one guy, I can grapple his entire force. And also, failing the grapple checks means I pretty much do nothing for the rest of that round, plus I've lost my dex bonus to AC. Its like a slightly weaker mass hold person.
Philip
Explorer
jgsugden said:
Still one level to go until my Sorcerer can get it. He already has Web and Evard's Black Tentacles to combine it with. Then the long wait until he can cast 6th lvl spells begins. He has the purify spell feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds, and for +1 lvl he can create a purified cloudkill which only damages evil creatures (half for neutral, none for good and 1d6 points of Con damage vs. evil outsiders).
Then our party can use the cloudkill for cover while attacking the enemies' lair!
Has anybody ever cast Empowered or Maximized Cloudkills?
frankthedm
First Post
Rashak Mani said:
Ouch, talk about getting tentacled
Mr. Cloudkill, You do know most evil, outsiders will ignore even a purified cloudkill.purifyspell even gives an example showing immunities evil outsiders have still trump purified spells.
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Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Stalker0 said:
Actually, there are a lot of other differences between Evards and mass hold person.
First, Evards is only active in a well defined area. So, if you make the grapple check and move out, it still provides an area that is effectively denied to your opponents
Second, Evards creates an area that it is risky to attack into with melee weapons unless you're on the edge. If you're grapple in the middle of Evards, the enemy rogue probably can't get you with melee attacks and technically, his ranged attacks probably have a 50% chance of hitting the tentacles (which are immune to all damage). So it doesn't make characters nearly as vulnerable as hold person.
Rashak Mani
First Post
Jhulae said:
Tentacle Grapple is: Large + Caster Lvl + 19 Str = LVL + 8
Fighter/Barbarian is: (Med) + BAB + 18 Str = LVL +4
Cleric with Dispel is: (Med) + 3/4 BAB + "14" Str. = LVL
Mage is finished.
Which means 18 Str characters are -4 behind. (16 Str are -5) 14 Str. Clerics would be at least -8. Assuming the Spellcaster is the same level. (which wasn't the case for us). The fact that the rest of the party is trapped and the Barbarian/Fighter doesn't have dispel means TPK. If it were possible to hack away tentacles it would be more reasonable.
Add to that half move from the area. A small PC or a medium or heavily armored human in the middle won't be able to leave in 1 round moving at 10 feet per round. (Grapple is standard action... so you get only 1 move) Two grapple checks at -4/-6 will get any fighter type.
It used to be a delaying spell... something that hurt PCs and took them sometime to kill the tentacles. Now it means either you get a lucky roll or your stuck and getting bashed. If you get lucky 5 rounds afterwards its still 5d6 +20 damage. (Avg 37.5) Ouch.
Fireballs won't help clear them out either. Dispel Required (50% chance of failure too!) It is CERTAINLY unbalanced at 4th lvl.
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Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Rashak Mani said:
Character with Freedom of Movement is Immune.
Character with blink is (essentially) immune
Character with dimension door escapes on a DC 24 concentration check.
Grappling fighter is: (med) +BAB +18 Str +4 =Lvl +8
Grappling Monk is: (Med) +BAB (3/4) +18 Str +4 (Imp Grapple)=Lvl +6
12th level fighter is (often): (med)+BAB +22 Str= Lvl +6
Enlarged Fighter is: (Large)+BAB+20 Str=Lvl +9
Enlarged Raging Barbarian is: (large)+BAB+ 24 Str=Lvl +10
Rogue with escape artist is: max ranks+18 dex=Lvl +7
Which actually means that some characters are ahead of the game (mostly characters with strength buffs like the 12th level fighter listed above or the enlarged characters), some characters are even, and some characters are significantly behind.
And, of course, if you follow the new D&D FAQ which seems to indicate that grapple checks are effected by situational modifiers (like prone, morale, luck, etc), Bless could add +1 to the PCs, prayer would add another +1, etc.
Assuming that the entire party is caught in the tentacles, odds are good that one will escape on the first round and another will escape the second, etc.
Assuming that the average character is 4 points behind the tentacles, the odds that at least one party member escapse in the round of casting are 81%. There's then a 71% chance that another will free himself in the second round. And a 54% chance that at least one more will escape on the third round.
And PCs with movement buffs (longstrider, boots of SS), barbarian levels, or who simply weren't all in an four adjoining squares when the spell goes off will usually be able to get out in one round.
It still is a delaying spell. And, while that can be remarkably effective, it's not nearly as deadly as you suggest (and it's not as if fourth level spells shouldn't be particularly effective--after all, fireball is third level and it is rather effective if everyone is lined up in formation too).
BTW, that fighter who is four points behind the tentacles' grapple check has about a 1.035123414011251216% chance of failing the ten consecutive grapple checks that would be necessary in order to take the 5d6+20 points of damage. (Actually, the chance should probably be lower since he has iterative grapple checks that he could potentially use to free himself and could potentially free himself by moving five feet on his iterative grapple checks several times)
Considering Cloudkill, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, and other 5th level delaying /battlefield control spells, I'm not convinced it's unbalanced at 4th.
In my experience as DM and occasional player, Black Tentacles is nigh-deadly against any non-teleporting corporeal opponent of less than the caster's level, and against primary spellcasters of most levels if they can't Teleport (or Dispel Magic stilled or spell-like). This does assume that the party gets in a round or two of ranged attacks and spells after the oppenent is grappled.
My party wizard has been having entirely too much fun with Black Tentacles, so last game (an assault on a Drow stronghold) I gave the spell to several of the Drow.![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
They only encountered one of them, but he was the #2 Big Bad, with a Caster Level 1-3 more than the party's levels. And he showed up while part of the party was still in a Webbed area from a previous fight (or an earlier phase of the same fight, really; the party went over 30 rounds without dropping out of combat, much to the annoyance of the barbarian, who raged early on and ended up fatigued for most of the fight).
Anyway, I'm here to warn you: Web + Black Tentacles = Very Bad (and I don't even want to *think* about Web + Tentacles + Silence). Even if you save vs the Web, which the party did. To quote from Web:
On your turn:
1: Roll grapple check(s) to escape from grapple. Usually fail.
2: If you succeed, you've used at least one attack, so you *can't* try to move through the Web (it requires a full round to make the Strength check), and you can't do anything else except a move-equivalent action.
On Big Bad's turn:
1: Tentacles grapple you, usually win. If you were already grappled, take 7-10 damage. If not, you're grappled now.
2: Big Bad hits you with damaging spell.
On your turn: Lather, rinse, repeat.
If you can't Teleport (without the use of scrolls), your only hope is to beat the Tentacles' grapple check twice in a row (once on your turn to escape, once on caster's turn to stay free), and then hope you can make the Web strength check well enough to move out of the area of effect... and you'll probably need to do this 2-3 times, since your movement (probably only 5-15 feet anyway, due to the Web) is cut in half by the Tentacles (I'd give you a minimum of 5' movement, assuming you made the STR check in the first place).
They eventually dispelled the Web, but the Tentacles stayed for their full duration (13 rounds). Ultimately, they trapped the Big Bad in their *own* Black Tentacles spell, and he couldn't escape (most of his spells were used up, he only could have used no-somatic-component ones anyway, and while I was going to have him use the Scroll of Dimension Door he already had in-hand, a sharp-eyed player pointed out that the Grapple rules forbid use of spell-completion items while grappled.
Other issues I have with Black Tentacles:
No save + no spell resistance + area of effect;
Immune to all damage, apparently including Disintegrate, which just seems wrong. :\
A field full of 10'-long black tentacles, each square of which is roughly equivalent to a Large creature, but it gives no concealment or cover to those within or on the other side fo it.
On the other hand, we did decide that, since it grapples and deals "bludgeoning" damage, DR (something besides "magic") applies against it, which means that some creatures (and Stoneskinned characters) won't take the damage. They're still stuck, though, and likely to be spelled and arrowed to death in short order.
My party wizard has been having entirely too much fun with Black Tentacles, so last game (an assault on a Drow stronghold) I gave the spell to several of the Drow.
They only encountered one of them, but he was the #2 Big Bad, with a Caster Level 1-3 more than the party's levels. And he showed up while part of the party was still in a Webbed area from a previous fight (or an earlier phase of the same fight, really; the party went over 30 rounds without dropping out of combat, much to the annoyance of the barbarian, who raged early on and ended up fatigued for most of the fight).Anyway, I'm here to warn you: Web + Black Tentacles = Very Bad (and I don't even want to *think* about Web + Tentacles + Silence). Even if you save vs the Web, which the party did. To quote from Web:
So, if you're Tentacle-Grappled and Webbed, the sequence is:
On your turn:
1: Roll grapple check(s) to escape from grapple. Usually fail.
2: If you succeed, you've used at least one attack, so you *can't* try to move through the Web (it requires a full round to make the Strength check), and you can't do anything else except a move-equivalent action.
On Big Bad's turn:
1: Tentacles grapple you, usually win. If you were already grappled, take 7-10 damage. If not, you're grappled now.
2: Big Bad hits you with damaging spell.
On your turn: Lather, rinse, repeat.
If you can't Teleport (without the use of scrolls), your only hope is to beat the Tentacles' grapple check twice in a row (once on your turn to escape, once on caster's turn to stay free), and then hope you can make the Web strength check well enough to move out of the area of effect... and you'll probably need to do this 2-3 times, since your movement (probably only 5-15 feet anyway, due to the Web) is cut in half by the Tentacles (I'd give you a minimum of 5' movement, assuming you made the STR check in the first place).
They eventually dispelled the Web, but the Tentacles stayed for their full duration (13 rounds). Ultimately, they trapped the Big Bad in their *own* Black Tentacles spell, and he couldn't escape (most of his spells were used up, he only could have used no-somatic-component ones anyway, and while I was going to have him use the Scroll of Dimension Door he already had in-hand, a sharp-eyed player pointed out that the Grapple rules forbid use of spell-completion items while grappled.
Other issues I have with Black Tentacles:
No save + no spell resistance + area of effect;
Immune to all damage, apparently including Disintegrate, which just seems wrong. :\
A field full of 10'-long black tentacles, each square of which is roughly equivalent to a Large creature, but it gives no concealment or cover to those within or on the other side fo it.
On the other hand, we did decide that, since it grapples and deals "bludgeoning" damage, DR (something besides "magic") applies against it, which means that some creatures (and Stoneskinned characters) won't take the damage. They're still stuck, though, and likely to be spelled and arrowed to death in short order.
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Rashak Mani
First Post
My pet peeve is still that it requires a Dispel Magic to get out of the way. While other spells can be circumvented by various means.
