Every Edition Has Its Setting

[airwalkrr]

My biggest problem with the edition/setting issue is Greyhawk. 3rd edition characters have so many weird and funky powers (i.e. feats and prestige classes) that it does not fit the descriptions of a lot of the original characters. Even the LGG did not try to dispel the notion that Greyhawk characters have typically fewer dimensions than are possible in 3e. None of the characters listed are given a prestige class. Few are multiclassed characters, and if they are, they reflect 1e conventions. I don't believe any of them even include details that hint at what kinds of feats they should have.

Now I am not saying you can't play 3e in Greyhawk. I have done so many times. But the characters that my players want to create never seem to fit the milieu. Half-dragons and tieflings do not walk around Oerth in large numbers. Most would be attacked on sight by local militias. And yet 3e provides fairly balanced rules for playing such characters. I could simply disallow them, but what is the fun in that? 3e is about options, but I don't think Greyhawk was ever meant to be that kind of fantastic. Greyhawk has rare but special magic items, a handful of archmages who force balance on an unwilling world, and an evil demigod who lives far to the north. But most commoners are human. Elves are largely relegated to forests and only have contact with humanity for diplomatic or trading purposes, which are few. Dwarves stay in the mountains or underground, and in the rare case that they inhabit human lands (Ulek), they are still insular.

I have almost as much of a problem with Eberron. Show me an Eberron character that would be even remotely capable of simple conversion to 1e. You would have to make so many house rules to 1e to create the kind of pulp-punk feel that Eberron has that it really wouldn't be 1e anymore.

 

[HellHound]

Quite honestly, if you asked me, the signature for 3.0 could have been Kalamar from Kenzer Co., just because it was the only real setting mainly devoted to d20/3.0 before Eberron came along with 3.5. Just a thought, and I'm sure plenty would disagree.

Really? (well, yeah, about the disagreeing).

I think that Scarred Lands saw a LOT more 3.0 use than Kalamar.

 

[diaglo]

I felt that Greyhawk and Blackmoor were the OD&D settings.

and the Wilderlands.

Mystara is the B/X & BECM setting (although Blackmoor was a big part of our B/X games back before we switched to my homebrew).

bah. The Known World not Mystara.

 

[Desdichado]

I also have to disagree that settings are somehow inherently better for one edition or system versus another.

Me too. Not even the same rule system in general; taking some of these settings completely out of D&D would still work fine for me.

I want a good system. I want a good setting. I don't care about tying one to the other, unless there's a fundamental disconnect in how the system works and how the setting is presented. There's no fundamental disconnect with any D&D setting to any D&D version, IMO.

 

[airwalkrr]

There's no fundamental disconnect with any D&D setting to any D&D version, IMO.

Consider the following.

Albras, an average 10th-level human fighter in AD&D 1e knows how to use seven weapons and has 55 hit points. Every other round he can make an extra attack. He has a +2 defending two-handed sword, a +1 suit of plate mail, and a cloak that lets him hide in shadows like a thief.

Meanwhile, Regdar, an average 10th-level human fighter in D&D 3e can wield well over 50 weapons with great proficiency, has 88 hit points, gains an extra +2 to hit and damage when wielding a greatsword, can take a -10 penalty to gain +20 damage, and is able to attack every opponent in reach with a single attack if he so chooses. He is also capable of improving his AC by 5 by taking a -5 penalty to his attack roll and he is loaded down with 49,000 gp in magic items, among them a +2 sword, +2 armor, a +2 shield, gauntlets of ogre power, an amulet of constitution +2, a ring of protection +2, two potions of haste, four potions of cure serious wounds, a cloak of resistance +3, and horseshoes of speed that he got when no one else wanted them; he doesn't even own a horse. And did I mention he can also move both before and after attacking? Albras couldn't even move and attack in the same round, unless of course he charged.

The game has become more fantastical, and as it has done so, it has demanded more fantastical settings. If you take an "average" character in 1e and convert him to an "average" character in 3e, you can quickly see that there is a big disconnect in the style of game being played and the type of characters involved. AD&D 1e characters weren't heroes unless they acted like heroes. A paladin had to bravely step in front of a demon, knowing that he would probably die, in order for it to be cool. The 3e paladin bravely steps in front of a demon, knowing that he will probably kick the demon's ass because he has a +1 evil outsider bane sword, 3 uses of smite evil left today, and a min/maxed charisma modifier to ensure he can save against anything the demon throws at him.

If you played AD&D, you know exactly what I am talking about. The new game is a much different style of game. The game mechanics are by their very definition more fantastical, more magical, more awe-inspiring, more heroic, more epic. AD&D wasn't about those things, at least not very often. Such things were certainly possible, but it was a result of actions, not a plethora of nifty abilities chosen by the player to maximize the character's potential. The most important character-building choice you made in AD&D was how to arrange your ability scores. In 3e, you face crucial decisions of the same magnitude at almost every level.

I could go on and on, but the point is the style is different. And you can not tell me that playing Greyhawk in 3e feels the same as playing Greyhawk in 1e. Sure, you can have characters named Iuz and Mordenkainen and Zagyg in both settings, but Mordenkainen couldn't cast a spell that gave him a +20 armor bonus in one of them. If you wanted to play a video game about jumping on goombas and koopas, you wouldn't play Ninja Gaiden. You'd play Mario Bros. Sure, you could make a game that uses a Mario sprite in the Ninja Gaiden motif, but it wouldn't be a Mario game. Mario doesn't throw ninja stars and slash bad guys with a katanna. He throws fireballs and stomps on his enemies' heads. The same principle applies to campaign settings. AD&D 1e is a game of adventuring and exploration. D&D 3e is a game of heroic adventuring and epic exploration. Greyhawk (at least pre-FtA) fits much better with 1e than it does with 3e.

 

[Hussar]

Wow, now there is some very rose colored glasses.

In your Albras example, I notice you left off his +3 Frostbrand, Girdle of Giant Strength and trunk full of other magic loot that he's collected. You also forget to mention that even armed with only what you list, he's taking on Adult Red dragons by himself and winning.

The game has become more fantastical, and as it has done so, it has demanded more fantastical settings. If you take an "average" character in 1e and convert him to an "average" character in 3e, you can quickly see that there is a big disconnect in the style of game being played and the type of characters involved. AD&D 1e characters weren't heroes unless they acted like heroes. A paladin had to bravely step in front of a demon, knowing that he would probably die, in order for it to be cool. The 3e paladin bravely steps in front of a demon, knowing that he will probably kick the demon's ass because he has a +1 evil outsider bane sword, 3 uses of smite evil left today, and a min/maxed charisma modifier to ensure he can save against anything the demon throws at him.

The game has not become more fantastical. That's flat out false. 3e combat is far and away more lethal than it ever has been. That 1e paladin stood in front of the demon because he knew that the demon couldn't touch him because of his protection from evil 10 foot radius ability hedged out the demon. Never mind that he could likely stand still and let the demon beat on him for three or four rounds before his hit points started to become threatened.

Albras couldn't even move and attack in the same round, unless of course he charged.

Just noticed that one. Dude what? You could always move up to half your speed and still make all your attacks. Unlike 3e where you lose your extra attacks if you move more than 5 feet.

but Mordenkainen couldn't cast a spell that gave him a +20 armor bonus in one of them.*snip* The same principle applies to campaign settings. AD&D 1e is a game of adventuring and exploration. D&D 3e is a game of heroic adventuring and epic exploration. Greyhawk (at least pre-FtA) fits much better with 1e than it does with 3e.

That's because Mord didn't need to cast that spell. He simply drops a Stoneskin spell and ignores the first three or four rounds of combat while dumping any spell he feels like.

This kind of edition bashing is just sad. At least try to get your mechanics complaints in the ballpark of being right.

 

[Hussar]

Albras, an average 10th-level human fighter in AD&D 1e knows how to use seven weapons and has 55 hit points. Every other round he can make an extra attack. He has a +2 defending two-handed sword, a +1 suit of plate mail, and a cloak that lets him hide in shadows like a thief.

Just thought of this.

If that's all the goodies that Albras has, why isn't he mugging his followers? They have better equipment than he does.

 

[Hussar]

In case anyone thinks I'm being unduly harsh here, here's a few examples of pregen characters from the G series of modules and their equipment:

Redmod Dumple Dwarf F9:dwarven hammer +3, plate mail +1, shield +1, ring of invisibility, boots of striding and springing, 2 potions of extra-healing

Beek Gwenders 1/2 elf R9: sword +1, crossbow of speed, 30 bolts +2, chainmail +2, shield +2, elven cloak and boots, sneezing dust (5 pinches), dust of appearance (5 pinches), dust of disappearance (5 pinches), potion of healing, 2 potions of extrahealing

Fonkin Hoddypeak Elf F5/MU 8: sword +2, 6 javelins of lightning, splint mail +2, ring of protection +2, ring of regeneration, elven cloak and 2 potions of extra-healing boots, scroll (cont. light, hold person)

And that's what they START with. Never mind that the module has loads more that they are going to pick up, and, as tourney characters, they start underequipped as it is. The myth that 1e was all about naked guys running around doing Iron Jim crap without any of this newfangled magic gear is so much hot air. 1e PC's were every bit as dependent on magic and goodies as any other edition.
monster), potion of healing,

 

[Imp]

The myth that 1e was all about naked guys running around doing Iron Jim crap without any of this newfangled magic gear is so much hot air. 1e PC's were every bit as dependent on magic and goodies as any other edition.

I don't believe that is necessarily true. There are certain cases, of course, monsters requiring a +x weapon to hit, etc, but it's not as built into the system, the attack bonuses, AC, etc. I would say that a 10th level AD&D character is going to be a lot richer and more item-heavy than a 10th level 3.5e character simply because the 10th level AD&D character will have had several times the raw adventuring experience, the way the charts were set up, and unless the DM was extremely stingy with magic items over a long long period, Albras is very very likely to have 5 or even 10 more items than the pregen characters Hussar has pulled out as examples. This is without running a loot-filled module. It took a lot longer to get to 10th level fighter in AD&D, unless you were taking in wagon trains of treasure (as in many modules), in which case the items came anyway.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I don't believe that is necessarily true.

I do. I still remember how it felt when we ran the 4th Slave Lords adventure in 1e, where you actually did run around naked for a while. We felt like our arms and legs had been cut off. "Uh...how are we supposed to do...anything...without equipment?"

Compare to 3.x, where you would have some useful skills, class abilities, decent grapple mechanics (yes, I remember that 1e had rules for that, too--but you might as well have just slammed your own head into a wall as grapple anything), etc.