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Evil Deities & Their Followers

Sol.Dragonheart said:
Shar is actually fairly nihilistic. If she had her way, all light, including the star that warms Toril, and by extension, life on Toril itself, would not exist.

Yea, life on Toril which is why all her followers would be given immortal shadow vampire form before being wisked away to a dark goth paradise. Talona spreads disease to other people and even if her followers get disease from time to time, that's just a test of their faith - or maybe represents a transformation of their physical body to something more powerful and spiritual. I'm not saying these ideas are FR canon, but maybe it helps make it more plausible (and what I'd shoot for is just plausible enough for everyone to stop thinking about it)

yet I still consider how certain deities such as Talona or Shar might successfully integrate themselves into society as a whole, to gain worshippers on a larger scale.

I have no idea why any vaguely good society would tolerate evil temples out in the open within their lands without some extraordinary circumstances (which, of course, could exist in your world). IMC evil cults do not operate in the open in good kingdoms.
 

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Sol.Dragonheart said:
I have also been considering the basic motivations and reasoning behind continuing to follow evil deities of any ilk if the D&D world in question has the standard afterlife ideologies, especially the higher ranking and more educated followers of those deities. Knowledge of the other planes and where the spirit departs to after life would be a known, codifiable fact for such people.

Neither the lower planes, the upper planes, or any in-between are about reward or punishment, just about a soul going to the environment that personifies what it best associates with. But be that as it may, it doesn't matter for followers of evil gods, because they'll be going to the divine realm of that god which might not necessarily have much resemblance to the plane at large that it resides within (Set's realm for instance is mostly desert, and it's in the middle of Stygia).

Serve an evil deity and gain their material favor in life, and in death continue on with that favor for an eternity (or perhaps till your god dies and the fiends set upon the god's domain like it was an all the souls you can eat buffet, but that's just me being cynical). It's a positive in life, and a positive in death for a true believer of an evil god. They don't fear roasting in a pit fiend's pantry, or becoming the eternally screaming cover of some ultroloth's spellbook, because their deity gets first pick at them before they would go to the plane of their alignment that otherwise might be somewhat unpleasant (but entirely fitting).
 

gizmo33 said:
I think you'd be hard pressed to design a fantasy world with such stark divisions like good and evil and yet everyone has completely recognizable human motivations. I think the more "human" you make your human NPCs, the more ambigious, and less fantasy, your fantasy world becomes.

Hmm, maybe "traditional fantasy" doesn't work this way, but there is and can be fantasy worlds that exist with truly deep, emotional characters walking a blurred line of good and evil. While I haven't read much, LOTR stands out because while the major baddie is truly evil, his influence through the ring is what blurs the line. It causes good people to feel temptation and greed without truly forcing their hand. The power of the ring and the fear of its abilities is what made it so awed and dreaded.

Fantasy worlds with gray areas are probably more fantastic and engaging than your standard Harry Potter fantasy passing around these days. If science fiction is able to be engaging by asking readers tough questions using a "what if" future scenario, then why can't fantasy offer the same thing? Without being based on a realistic possibility required in sci-fi, fantasy can over a more fantastical viewpoint of the human condition without having the worry about how something can come to pass. If we could see into the afterlife and find out what our fate would be, why would we worship the gods, particularly evil ones? Why should we carry on if we know what the end result will be anyways? I think looking at why evil clerics would serve an evil deity is a perfect example of this and could add many deep layers to a game.

And to answer the original question, perhaps evil clerics serve for the same reason as people would sell their souls to the Devil in Christian mythology. The need for something in their current life in exchange for servitude in the afterlife, later believing they can cheat their fate by keeping their fingers crossed behind their back.

What's more frightening is this: if an evil cleric knows the fate awaiting him when he dies and proceeds anyways without any hesitation, does that make him more frightening?
 

EP said:
Hmm, maybe "traditional fantasy" doesn't work this way, but there is and can be fantasy worlds that exist with truly deep, emotional characters walking a blurred line of good and evil.

You're right, I probably should just take back what I said, and replace "fantasy" with "DnD". Even LotR, as you point out, has a little more ambiguity in terms of human nature than DnD apparently does. I can't think of a fantasy novel that has a "detect alignment" type spell that works on everyone in the world - it would be interesting to find one that did.
 

An aquaintence was reading the thread and commented particularly on Cyric, whose worshippers he says consider themselves more able to achieve things through their own superiority than by worrying about the world at large, and Cyric appeals to their vanities that doing what they want to do is really for the best in the end. While giving examples of structured philosophies of this nature would prolly get me in trouble, I'd have to agree with him that a god that basicly says "Good and Evil are alright concerns for those sheep, but you! You're above all that." is likely to appeal at some level...

He also commented that most worshippers of evil gods aren't going to worry much about what happens in the afterlife - evil tends to be shortsighted by nature, and evil gods are good at providing a quick fix and cheap 'miracles' that some folks will take without worrying overmuch about the fine print - they are, afterall, going to live forever. ;)
 

gizmo33 said:
You're right, I probably should just take back what I said, and replace "fantasy" with "DnD". Even LotR, as you point out, has a little more ambiguity in terms of human nature than DnD apparently does. I can't think of a fantasy novel that has a "detect alignment" type spell that works on everyone in the world - it would be interesting to find one that did.

Even then, D&D should be replaced with "popular fantasy." I find everything out there passing as fantasy tends to be black-and-white and this keeps the outsider's view of the genre as a kid's tale. Nice and simple, good guys and bad guys. Which means boring. And if D&D has a cartoon and two "movies" that clearly fit this style, then it was never designed to handle complicated issues without some serious revisions.

Just take a look at how alignment is presented in the PHB. Good alignments are applauded and evil alignments are loathed, rather than treated equally and simply acknolwedged as one viewpoint in a sea of viewpoints.
 

Oh- but in spite of that clarification I still think that fantasy does have generally stark extremes. Even if the bulk of humanity is ambiguous, there is some force out there that's evil and another that's good, and there's not much debate about it's nature. For example, there's no debate about Sauron's evil in the books AFAIK. I'm not clear on what motivation Tolkien gives, if any, for why large groups of men and orcs are convinced to follow him.

I can't think of any example in fantasy where an obviously evil force maintains an open temple dedicated to an obviously evil deity within a good kingdom. (The "snake cult" in the Conan movie is close, but I think the King is obviously on his way out of power, so there's question as to whether the snake cult operates within a "good kingdom")

Regarding the OP - doomsday cults exist in the real world but their followers always AFAIK are assured a place in some heaven afterwards when the rest of reality is destroyed.
 

gizmo33 said:
Regarding the OP - doomsday cults exist in the real world but their followers always AFAIK are assured a place in some heaven afterwards when the rest of reality is destroyed.

That's something to think about. How to Cyric, Bane, Shar, and the others actually present themselves to their followers. What we read is the "good" view from on high, looking down at these religions with disdain, but it doesn't seem likely that Bane's clerics preach to the masses the same way others speak of them. Perhaps that's where the answer to this predicament lies. It's quite possible many followers, even with their access to the planes, are given a dubious story leaving them to believe that following evil gods is the way to go. And if access to the planes is given to them by the evil gods themselves, then how can you actually trust what you see? The average commoner does not have access to such knowledge until after they have attained levels and studied, so if they study as an evil cleric, chances are their knowledge is a bit forfeit.
 

One poster raised the issue of a deity that is harsh / 'evil' towards outsiders but helpful / 'good' towards their own people.


What we have to remember is that in pre-modern times many peoples did not necessarily view outsiders as people. Many tribes - whether in the Americas, Africa, Australia, or Asia - often had a name for themselves that translated as 'people. Outsiders could become 'people', but they were not to be considered 'people' - or given the rights / respects / consideration of such - until some form of adoption process had occurred (usually a variant of their coming of age ceremony, although marriage into the tribe also worked, usually).

So the viking raiders - known to much of Europe for their savagery, deceit, cruelty, pillaging, and generally dishonorable behavior - were, in their homelands, just as well known for their generosity, truthfulness, honor, and so forth. They did not have a split personality. Those in their homelands were 'people' and were treated as such. Those outside their homelands were less than those in their homelands - although I'll admit I do not know offhand whether they considered them non-people.

Similarly, there are tribes in Africa, central Asia, and elsewhere that are known for harshness towards non-people (ie: outsiders) but honor and such towards people (ie: their tribal members). Even Europe during the 1500s - 1600s was not quite exempt. There was a famous instance where the Pope was questioned as to whether the native americans had souls and thus should not be enslaved, etc. He replied they did, but the fact that the question even was asked in the first place shows that the idea existed of a division between humans who are 'people' and should be treated as such and humans that are 'non-people' and not worthy of respect, etc.

Many ancient religions tended to have deities who were gloried for their harshness towards non-members of the tribe and benevolence towards members of the tribe that worshipped them. Thus many deities were viewed as fiendish or at least uncaring from the perspective of outsiders and benevolent / honorable from the perspective of insiders.


Considering the whole of the human race 'people' is more of a modern than ancient concept - or at least it is far more common now than then.

So, I tend to ignore alignment entirely in dealing with fantasy deities. If they are based on ancient / historical patterns, then they are likely both viewed as good and act as good towards their own worshipers and either utterly indifferent or callously cruel towards non-followers. I'm not sure if any setting - either game or novel - currently on the market accurately depicts such a situation (in part because it is not politically correct to have such a discriminatory view), but it would help make sense of the various 'evil' deities in a campaign setting. After all, very few deities in the ancient world were typically viewed as 'evil'. They were maliciously mischievious or indifferently uncaring, but very rarely were they seen as 'evil' by their followers. Even Loki was known for a few acts of random kindness, for example.


Those that were viewed as maliciously mischievious or indifferently callous were worshiped more to placate them - either beforehand or after the fact if problems developed later and an augury pointed out the unknown sin that lead to the problems being sent against the community. The norse deity of the deeper sea (forget his name at the moment), was given sacrifice before major sea voyages not to show love of a deity, nor even to show fear of a deity, but rather to show respect, in the hope that the deity - should he consider sending a storm, might decide otherwise. Or, if he takes any notice of them while they are sailing upon his domain, he might take offense upon realizing that they did not show him respect before 'trespassing'. Even if you do not agree with a person or their views, if they have the means of killing you at any instant upon a whim, you should likely respect their power and not seek to purposefully antagonize them.

That was generally the view on following proper procedures, giving due respect / sacrifices, etc towards many of the so-called 'evil' deities. You followed the customary luck ritual / traditional sacrifice / ceremonial sign of respect when about to do something they might take notice of (such as entering their domain), so that should they take notice they would realize you had shown respect and not smite you out of irritation from your callous disregard of them and their power over you (by not following the rituals that showed you respected them). In effect, showing such hubris to ignore respecting your (divine) betters.


Those deities that were openly considered evil by their followers were as often associated with or considered fiends (or the cultural equivalent) than true deities. Consider, for instance, that most of the 'evil' greater beings of norse mythology were not deities but instead giants. Surtr, a fire giant, was not a deity and was not worshiped, but in their mythos he was a being of great cruelty and terror, who would one day aid in the destruction of the world.

Yet another example, the Egyptian deity Set - whose name can be translated as either 'one who dazzles' or 'pillar of stability' - was in many ways the equivalent of Shiva, a destroyer deity who, through destruction, aided and kept in place the harmony of the universe. Indeed, he was considered the hero of Ra, ever fighting the terrible demon Apep (the only being in egyptian mythos actually considered evil) so as to prevent evil from overcoming the world. Later conquerers demonized Set in part due to the fact that Set was a rallying point for those loyal to prior pharohs, as he was symbolic of the strength of the throne. But then most deities considered 'evil' were often the result of later demonization by conquering peoples (or those that outlasted the disliked worshipers for any reason, really).


And now I've gone rather far afield from my intended point, so to prevent this from going even more off tangent I will end this here.
 

It goes like this:

Mortal: "Hey, Evil God of something bad or other, why should I worship you?"
EGosboo: "You get to be a bad mofo and I won't mind. In fact, if you start being my cleric, I'll give you spells to be even meaner."
Mortal: "Jolly good! Where do I sign?"
 

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