Evil Deities & Their Followers

[Kae'Yoss]

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but, generally speaking, why would there be such a strong and immediate opposition to churches of deities like Cyric, Beshaba, Shar, and so forth, having open churches and places of worship in most regions?

"Did you hear, my dear? Our new neighbours are from this church where they try to find out peoples' darkest secrets and use those secrets against them."
"Great! It was getting boring here!"

I somehow can't imagine this conversation actually happening.

If they were, of course, like this:
"Miz Sri'vastra, I'll bet agree there are too many stray cats out there. My church has the solution."
People would do wondrous things, like fainting and telling them to get out at the same time

(A virtual, non-fattening cookie to the first person who tells me where this is from!)

 

[Wolfwood2]

Then there's the Cleric of Vol I'll be playing in an Eberron game starting up shortly.

He's all about brotherhood and family; and protecting said with ruthless lethal force (not to mention animating your sorry corpse afterward). Oh, and achieving eternal "life" and what he sees as a spark of divinity by becoming free-willed undead (should the game last that long his ambition would be to become a Lich)

A very "if you're not with me you're against me" attitude to be sure, leaving him squarely NE serving an [Evil] power structure.

Sure, but Eberron is a whole different ball of wax. Nobody gets rewarded in the afterlife, the gods may or may not exist, and everybody has their own take on what the gods represent.

I have no trouble with people worshipping 'evil' religions in Eberron.

 

[EP]

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but, generally speaking, why would there be such a strong and immediate opposition to churches of deities like Cyric, Beshaba, Shar, and so forth, having open churches and places of worship in most regions?

For the same reason that terrorist cells are not allowed to operate in the US when discovered - their purpose is seen as opposing and counter to those of the dominant belief and they practise things such as death and destruction against Americans. Even if you could prove that terrorists were donating some of their money to the United Way, there's no way that anyone would stand for terrorists living and operating in the United States.

I know that FR in particular states that the number of worshippers controls the power of the deity, but I also believe that the impact of a god plays a factor in their power too. If an evil god is truly feared by the general population, that grants him power on top of whatever followers he may have. It's almost as if invoking the name of an evil god is the same as saying a prayer in their name. When a deity is forgotten, they fade into the Astral Plane as giant rocks. Once again, a personal tool and not official material.

 

[gizmo33]

Yet we just went through the multiple justifications and reasoning behind people joining and following an evil deity. If an evil church or religious group poses no immediate or obvious danger to the region or its government, and, as mentioned, actively aids and helps the region, why would people be opposed to having them around?

What I was saying was that evil, by definition, poses an immediate and obvious danger to regions and governments that are not directly allied with them. It's inherent in the definition and so I don't see a way to have an evil that's tolerated unless you do something like the Slitherin (sp?) House from Harry Potter - which are really more goth kids than evil kids - the trappings of evil, and maybe some ambiguous sneers, but no real evil behavior.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

I don't really see the connection between modern day terrorists and evil religious organizations, particularly in the sense of how they relate to society. The reason modern day terrorists are openly hunted is because they openly declare their intention to overthrow and destroy the current lawful government, by any means necessary, and take brutal and savage actions to further this end.

What church of Shar, Cyric, or Beshaba, would reasonably take this stance? They would ingratiate themselves to be as close as possible to the government, in fact, and attempt to gain control of the region through conversion and political savvy, particularly those of a Cyricist or Sharran bent.

Even the more brutal, forthright organizations of evil would not take the foolhardy, self damaging actions that open oppostion to lawful governments brings. Look at the Church Of Bane for a prime example. They further, and have furthered their influence by integrating themselves into key organizations and people of power, culminating in their complete dominion of the Zhentilar organization.

Assuming that any intelligent leader of a religious organization, whose power and influence is determined by thier followers and ability to further the ends of their deities goals, would take the actions that terrorists of the modern day era have taken makes little sense to me. Such actions are neither cunning, manipulative, intelligent, intriguing, or wise, and I would expect few other than followers of Garagos to implement them.

 

[EP]

But these churches are not supported in a free, open environment and are treated LIKE terrorist cells. If clerics of Cryic, Shar, and all the others were allowed to practise in the open, then this discussion would never happen, but they can't because of the danger the general population perceives them to be. These religions are based on concepts that go against a normally functioning human/demi-human society and most other religions/governments will not stand for their presence. In some cases, they may be tolerated but there will never be any public acknowledgement of their existance. And, let's face it, it's only a matter of time before a evil cleric's plans to take over the world come close to fruition (and documented in a published adventure for our heroes to dispose of).

I haven't played FR yet (and anything of it that I have played are just simple adventures without much detail on the land itself), but I've read the Drizzt books and most of the Realms seem lawful good as a whole. Or neutral good. There's no way that an open church of Shar or any other would be condoned in any major city and there would be few people who would respect the role of these evil deities in the greater scheme of things. By comparing them to terrorists, this is what I mean. It's the perception of the danger they represent to the society, not the actual threat itself.

And this is the challenge that drives these clerics, battling against the odds and thriving (in their own way) against the face of authority. It could also be one of the thrills for them to worship under constant danger of being arrested and possibly even executed. Not the main motivation, but a goal that keeps them going on a daily basis.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

The novels are generally speaking not a good reference for the Realms as whole. Most of the regions I have seen covered in the novels are those where Good NPCs or governments are firmly in control of the populace, usually one of the Chosen. This is most certainly not the case across the entirety of the Realms.

I still don't really see why nations or cities like Sembia, Calimshan, Amn, Luskan, Westgate and others would outright bar the open worship of Shar, Cyric, or others. Even a generally lawfully inclined city, such as Baldurs Gate, houses one of the largest temples in the world to a CE deity, Umberlee, and with good reason considering its status as a port town.

Really, the only people who would perceive said religions in such a negative manner are those who are diametrically opposed to the goals and practices of those religions, and are generally beholden to another religious faction that shares this belief. I do not consider it to be a logical, provable precedent in the Realms that a religious order or church that can provide immediate, tangible benefits to a city, region, or government would not be allowed to operate in said area.

I suppose that what I really dislike about the usual idea of religious evil figures in varying campaign worlds is that they are almost always insane, in the sense that they do not take reasonable, pragmatic action to secure their standings, houses of worship, and the loyalty of their followers. Wisdom is, in theory, the highest statistic of most Clerics, so you would think that they would be the most practical, patient, long term thinkers and planners.

 

[EP]

Once again, that's where base fantasy comes into play and the use of stereotypical bad guys make D&D, in it's original format, very black-and-white. In all honesty, there's nothing to say that smaller conclaves can't exist within cities and are basically ignored (but heavily monitored) by the other religions so long as they behave themselves. Even Forgotten Realms has room for changes, no matter how detailed they get.

It sounds like your fairness towards all faiths in the game would make the use of evil religions an interesting moment for your players. Especially if one of them happens to be a paladin and they are forced to deal with an evil religion for a quest.