Evil Deities: Who needs em?
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tzor
First Post
I tend to run Lankhmar type campaigns which place a different importance on evil deities than would be normally true in most common scenarios. Since the deities of Nehwon are generally located in the same place (godsland) the evil deities are usefull in giving neutural deities an occasional evil idea. Here the gods are less in war with each other than in trying to promote their own portfolios, they get in each other's way.
But in general, demons and devils don't get worshipers. They get those will serve and those who will use, but rarely do they form a cause in their own right, as would be the case of an evil deity. One could say a similiar argument for good deities and celestials, but in the case of good there is a general cooperation between the inhabitants of good planes and the deities of the good planes. In the case of evil, neither would give each other the time of day. They become like oil and vinegar and only a good shake will ever get them together.
But in general, demons and devils don't get worshipers. They get those will serve and those who will use, but rarely do they form a cause in their own right, as would be the case of an evil deity. One could say a similiar argument for good deities and celestials, but in the case of good there is a general cooperation between the inhabitants of good planes and the deities of the good planes. In the case of evil, neither would give each other the time of day. They become like oil and vinegar and only a good shake will ever get them together.
Psion
Adventurer
Not entirely, but when you are talking about simple criteria like:
- can they be slain?
- can they grant spells to cultists/worshippers?
Then in all cases, IMC, I'd say yes.
As I have said in past threads on the evil deity/demon lord dichotomy, the way I see them, they are not mutually exclusive labels nor are they identical.
Whisper72
Explorer
Hmmm, interesting. IMC that is indeed the main difference between powerful demonic, angelic or elemental powers and real GODS of evil, good or elements etc. is indeed the granting of spells.
The slaying thing is a bit more diffuse. IMC Gods CAN be slain, but generally because of events / magics / issues far from what 'normal mortals' can achieve. And I consider even epic characters with stats in the 50+'s and character levels in the hundred or higher range as being 'normal mortals' in this respect.
The slaying thing is a bit more diffuse. IMC Gods CAN be slain, but generally because of events / magics / issues far from what 'normal mortals' can achieve. And I consider even epic characters with stats in the 50+'s and character levels in the hundred or higher range as being 'normal mortals' in this respect.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I have demons/devils who can grant spells, and I still need evil gods.
The reason is for 'popular evil.' It's kinda like Loki vs. Demogorgon....Demogorgon is an exception, an abberation, a being once mortal now semi-divine, whose agenda and goals are thuroughly selfish and desctructive, with no care for any good save his own.
Loki, however, is an integral part of the pantheon. He's related to half of 'em, he's helped a few out, and, despite his wickedness, he's still relatable. He keeps the world around, and he keeps the wilds dangerous. He works within the 'deity system' despite being one of the key destroyers of that system.
Demogorgon, or a planar lord would never ever be useful in any way beyond their own desires. Loki, on the other hand, is beholden to the nature and politics of being a deity.
Maybe think of it as the Madman and the Demonic Emperor. The Madman obliterates all that he sees, for he feels no mortal pain, and fears no mortal foe. The Demonic Emperor is relatable, he's got a logic (albeit an evil one), and a corrupted form. If he destroys the world, there is none to rule over. They're both Chaotic Evil, but it's a matter of 'pure'ness. The Emperor is less pure, the Madman is less relatable.
Basically, I need evil gods for the same reason I need evil humans, evil elves, evil gnomes, evil dwarves...because it's somehow slightly more disturbing when the wicked deities are related and recognizable, as something anyone could become, rather than some alien corruption from beyond. Not all flavors of evil are the same extreme. Some are much, much more close to home.
The reason is for 'popular evil.' It's kinda like Loki vs. Demogorgon....Demogorgon is an exception, an abberation, a being once mortal now semi-divine, whose agenda and goals are thuroughly selfish and desctructive, with no care for any good save his own.
Loki, however, is an integral part of the pantheon. He's related to half of 'em, he's helped a few out, and, despite his wickedness, he's still relatable. He keeps the world around, and he keeps the wilds dangerous. He works within the 'deity system' despite being one of the key destroyers of that system.
Demogorgon, or a planar lord would never ever be useful in any way beyond their own desires. Loki, on the other hand, is beholden to the nature and politics of being a deity.
Maybe think of it as the Madman and the Demonic Emperor. The Madman obliterates all that he sees, for he feels no mortal pain, and fears no mortal foe. The Demonic Emperor is relatable, he's got a logic (albeit an evil one), and a corrupted form. If he destroys the world, there is none to rule over. They're both Chaotic Evil, but it's a matter of 'pure'ness. The Emperor is less pure, the Madman is less relatable.
Basically, I need evil gods for the same reason I need evil humans, evil elves, evil gnomes, evil dwarves...because it's somehow slightly more disturbing when the wicked deities are related and recognizable, as something anyone could become, rather than some alien corruption from beyond. Not all flavors of evil are the same extreme. Some are much, much more close to home.
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Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Actually druids don't get spells from the titans. They just think they do. There are ways that druidic magic changes as each titan held dominion over the land. But essentially, each druid can still cast spells even without titanic help. Well at least some do.diaglo said:no you sound like Nighttfall and his Scarred Lands...
Regarding why you need evil deities versus Archfiends, I'd say you need gods because while dealing with Archfiends has some rewards, the costs are much higher. And in some worlds (like mine), the Archfiends while able to grant spells would be crushed if they were found doing this without the gods approval. (Hey they crushed titans. I don't see even someone like Asmodeus surviving the full on assault of the Scarred Lands Panethon IF they decided he was crossing lines.)
Calico_Jack73
First Post
I really think it has everything to do with the flavor of your campaign. I've played and run in games where there were no evil gods or even demons for that matter, just devils and I still had fun. However, I'm getting ready to kick off a Midnight campaign and it is utterly essential that you have an evil god because he is the ONLY god in the setting. I suppose that I could swap out Izrador for old Azmodeus but I don't think it would have the same feel... Izrador is supposed to represent a source of evil beyond all understanding and is also supposed to be unbeatable (not statted), Azmodeus on the otherhand IS beatable (he is statted). That feeling of overwhelming evil is central to the feel of the campaign. Back in the 70's when I first started playing we didn't even detail which god it was who granted a good cleric their spells... we just said the spells came from the "Force for Good" and left it at that. Evil gods vs. Archfiends... it is just a matter of personal taste for the campaign.
Calico_Jack73
First Post
Nightfall said:
Now I know that you love your setting and all but Asmodeus is WAY too tricky to be caught. If he knew that there was the possibility of getting caught he'd make sure that it seemed to be someone else committing the offense. Asmodeus has been playing the deception game since the beginning and if you read the wording in the BOVD (or was it Manual of the Planes) "he has yet to be bested". I also believe that as gods get further away from their home plane they lose more and more power. In Nessus Asmodeus would be pretty much unbeatable. If he were easy to beat then you'd think that he'd have been defeated by the gods of goodness ages ago (think about how many good gods there are in FR). He also has Tiamat at his beck and call... she guards the first level of the Nine Hells. If anything he'd allow the gods to THINK they had beat him so that there would be another major power struggle in the Nine Hells among his lessers which he could then twist to his advantage.
Sorry... I'm a diehard Asmodeus fan.
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Unless they want him there...
Altalazar
First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
I like that basic concept - which is why in my world, there are gods of all stripes, but really, none of them exist, in reality - in the sense that you will never see nor hear a single peep from any of them. They exist basically as abstractions. So what the priesthood of a given god is like is actually 100% and completely up to the priesthood itself - it isn't forced on them, though they certainly feel compelled to follow what they think is the right way to worship their god. Thus, different sects for the same god can be very very different. Some might even say there are alignment variations, though that tends not to happen due to self-selection more than anything else.
So the good and evil in the world is entirely made up of the actions (or inaction) of those in it, not from some unseen forces. And that, in many ways, makes it the most insidious evil of all.
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