Evil PCs and Epic Gaming HELP!

[Anubis]

I have a problem with my players. Many of them want evil characters, which I won't allow, and some of them don't like my epic style of adventuring.

To me, as a DM, the classic dungeon crawling adventuring just to adventure is boring. I only like epic games where the PCs' actions actually mean something. I enjoy having a complex plot and major bad guys for the PCs to face.

I am in danger of losing my gaming group, and there are no others around here. How can I get them to see that evil is evil and NOT just a matter of perception, and I how do I get them to enjoy having a purpose?

 

[twjensen]

Assuming that you're in a city, there's probably a game store or comic book shop type outlet where you can meet new gamers.

Assuming that you are writing from a small town or farm community where there isn't anyone around and certainly not enough people for a dedicated gaming store, I'd try being an evil DM.

Seriously, consider allowing them to be evil, but then create a party of good NPCs who periodically try to hunt them down. Keep the NPCs at the same power level as the PCs, and do this every two-three levels. Make sure the NPCs power is innate, don't give them magic items for the PCs to take! If they aren't sick of being evil by level 10, start making the mix nasty. Pick NPC classes that specifically target the party's weaknesses.

And remember, evil PCs have a reputation. No one will buy their extra magic stuff, people flee from villages DAYS in advance of their arrival, the party wizard has to make his own ink and parchament! Don't make that easy, the wizard has to take ranks in craft: ink and craft: parchament or he can't scribe any more spells.

Just my two c.p.

Good luck!

 

[Nish]

I know this is not really what you asked for, but...

I think its a false assumption that a game can't be both evil and epic. In fact I have played a couple of very epic campaigns with all evil characters. Evil people are people too. They still have some kind of value system, even if it doesn't really jive with how Heironeous would have them live. Evil people can still act to save the world against an even greater darkness, or better yet, Good gone awry and spun horribly out of control.

As for how to run a campaign like this, I can't really help you. My DM certainly could, but he doesn't really post here anymore. Although, I think part of his success was in the Planescape campaign setting where everything is infinite and corrupt to some degree.

Maybe you can come to some kind of compromise with your players where they still get to be evil as long as they play actual characters and not just use their alignment to do whatever they feel like at the time. As long as they do have real motivations and values of some kind, its still very possible to run an epic and almost heroic campaign. Tragic anti-heroes can be alot of fun for players and the DM if handled properly.

 

[Anubis]

Hmmm . . . Interesting . . . Perhaps I'll give it a try . . .

 

[Orco42]

I'm with twjensen. Let 'um be evil.

Then you can kill them with evil or good creatures. I've played and DMed a few evil games and it was fun.

There was a fun adventure in 2e called Reverse Dungeon. You were evil huminoids and had to stop those pesky adventures, it was a blast.

 

[FANGO]

DMing is not about disallowing things. It's about creating a fun world for both you and your players, and in any human enterprise there must always be compromise. So allow your players to be evil. However, talk to them about how evil they want to be, why they want to be evil, what their character's goals would be, and so on. Build some adventures out of this, and tweak things around a bit. Perhaps even add twists-often there are plot points where good characters will be turning towards evil (and the DM will warn them about this and such), so why not have your evil characters being tempted towards good?

Above all, *DO NOT* make it harder on your players just because they're evil. Do send them challenges appropriate to their characters, but don't make it harder for some arbitrary reason like "I don't like evil characters". This is the purest example of DMG page 100 (a page which I often cite against a DM in our group who tends towards this "I won't allow you to do things for no other reason than I don't like it, and I won't negotiate about it at all" style of DMing), and will only make the game less fun for everyone.

Basically, your top priority as a DM is to create a game that is enjoyable for both your players and yourself, and to do this you have to compromise. There is no way around it. Just talk to your players, and maybe even try to convince them not to be evil. But if you just disallow things without any further discussion, nobody is going to be happy.

(By the way, the reference to page 100 refers to the "Bad Structure" heading..I don't have a DMG with me right now, but I believe that it mentions that foiling all the pcs abilities is a bad thing, and it seems that a few of the posts in this thread were suggesting that you do that)

 

[Anubis]

Okay, then that brings up another question. Opposing alignments.

One of the main characters is a paladin with an intelligent holy avenger.

By rule, paladins won't join with evil people. An intelligent holy avenger is likely to act the same. How would evil characters be possible under such circumstances?

Also, how do I get my players to enjoy an epic quest game? They don't like having a purpose for some reason. If I do it my way, it's only fun for me. Their way, it's only fun for them. How am I to balance this? (And how would evil characters be involved with fighting the big bad guy?)

 

[Rashak Mani]

How about making a side campaign... once in a while when your players are tired of being goodie good... play an evil campaign... doesnt even have to be epic.

My experience has been that roleplaying, among players, in an evil group is much better... there isnt so much "going along" with the others... each PC tends to be more selfish and demands his share or decision making.

Would I play this all the time ? No... but it makes for fun variety.

Dont stop your normal campaign... just switch once in a while to your evil group and have fun. Lawful Evil can be such a good alignement

 

[thundershot]

Actually, this is something that I'm going to do, only with a twist. I bought the Evil book by AEG a couple months ago, and I plan to put it to use. My players really need to cut loose with some evil PCs after all these years of being heroes. However, after they build up so far, I'll switch back over to the regular party, and go back to the usual. After a couple adventures, I'll insert some minor sub-plots, which will end with the Evil Party trying to manipulate the Good Party... with a wonderful confrontation at the end. Bwahahaa...

Chris

 

[Deadguy]

Discuss!

Though others have mentioned it, Anubis, I relly do advise that you:

1. Ask them to explain why they want to play Evil characters. What does Evil mean to them? What do they think they can do as Evil characters that would be impossible as Good or Neutral characters? Do they realises that as Evil characters they are going to find the people they will have to deal with to get by will be Evil too - with all that that entails?
2. What don't they like about the Epic or Quest format? Maybe they feel they are being railroaded (and ask yourself as DM: "Do I do that?"). Do they feel they don't have enough input into how the deal with Epic matters? Do they just dislike the idea of Responsibility that comes with Epic activities?
   [/list=1] You really must clarify these matters with them, preferably in a setting away from the game play itself (i.e. go and enjoy a casual social encounter with your players instead!). If you can get to the nub of their choices, then you are in a much better position to decide whether you can ever reach a compromise over the gaming style. If there is no real compromise possible, then you may reluctantly have to accept that you are not going to be gaming with some of these people. Should that be so, then see if there are some with whom you could continue to game (it really only takes 1 DM and 1 player to play D&D!).
   
   Good luck, and let us know how you get on.