Evoker (Prohibited school Divination) goes Divine Oracle?

[Lord Pendragon]

Nope.

Bouncer, you're trying to use a loophole that doesn't exist. A Specialist wizard cannot cast arcane spells from his restricted school.

In the case of your Evoker, he casts arcane spells, and is prohibited from Divination spells. The Divine Oracle PrC adds Divination domain spells to his spellbook, making them into arcane spells. Those spells are arcane Divination spells, and prohibited.

 

[Ulthain]

RE: Bouncer

The question is if we are doing rules lawyering or if we are playing a game to have fun?

First off, there is no error in your reasoning, but that is not the point. What you are forgetting is that you are trying to work around something that was not intended. Your DM should treat your proposal accordingly.

If I am correct, this evoker happens to be an illusionist and I happen to be the DM for him As a result, you would not be allowed to do it, you have forsaken the study of divination for your heightened abilities in your chosen school, that is all that matters. I would perhaps allow you to change that by using wish spells, but that is a little expensive for iding the kind of magic items I am giving you isn't it.

Whoever said I was an easy DM

 

[Chacal]

I would allow this if a Cleric level was taken, and the +1 progression was used for the divine spell progression.
This way it wouldn't look as a blatant attempt to avoid a limitation, and could have some good roleplaying reasons like the
" divination should only be divine and asked kindly to the gods, arcane divination is heretic !" motto.

Of course wiz/clr multiclass is usually underpowered in 3e, but that's another thread

Chacal

 

[Madfox]

Re: Nope.

Bouncer, you're trying to use a loophole that doesn't exist. A Specialist wizard cannot cast arcane spells from his restricted school.

In the case of your Evoker, he casts arcane spells, and is prohibited from Divination spells. The Divine Oracle PrC adds Divination domain spells to his spellbook, making them into arcane spells. Those spells are arcane Divination spells, and prohibited.

Is this different from taking 1 level of sorcerer to circumvent the restrictions of the specialist wizard? As a sorcerer the wizard can now use items which require the wizard to have spells in their spell list. As a sorcerer these divination spells are also arcane, so the source of the spells hardly matter. This is an official example btw. So I think I agree with Caliban on this one. Only the Divine Oracle levels should be counted for divination spells. This has an added benefit that taking the prestige class is not totally useless for an invoker, but it is hardly very beneficial.

In the end though it is a rediculous combination anyway, so more then likely I would not even allow it. I have the strong urge to add the requirement that the character should be able to cast at least one 2nd level divination spell

 

[Cygnus]

Lets look at official FAQ from Dof page 2:

[snip A]
An Arcane spellcaster who gains access to spells in a prestige domain can cast those spells as arcane spells, but they are still divine spells as far as the rest of multiverse is concerned.

An arcane caster with access to a prestige domain could use spell trigger items that use spells on the prestige domain list, but he could not read divine scrolls with those spells on them. If an arcane spell caster put a prestige domain spell on a scroll, it would be an arcane scroll and only another arcane spell caster with access to that domain could use the scroll.

Sorcerers and bards who gain access to a prestige domain add the domain spells to the list of spells they know and wizards who gain access to a prestige domain add the spells to their spell book.
[end snip A]

and Dof page 77.
[snip B]
If Kharid, a 10th level sorcerer, gained a level in the sacred exorcist prestige class, he would also gain the granted power of excorcism domain... He would have the spellcasting ability of an 11th level sorceror... The excorcism domain spells of level 1 through 5 would be added to his spells known...
[end snip B]

Cygnus + Camarath
Wouldn't you agree that your reasoning collides with [snip A]?

Nope , and here is why: All of the examples are generic Specialists are specialized. Evokers are arcane casters, but they devote so much time to the study of evocation that they loose access to one or more schools. The follow on example of the sorcerer remains generic. Sure, in general, mages can gain access to the domain, but the evoker can still only cast nondivination arcane spells. And the stipulation that the arcane caster can put the spell on the scroll that another arcane caster with acess to the same domain can use only reinforces the point. An evoker could hold any scroll in his/her hand, but that doesn't mean that s/he can cast it. The scrolls are writen in such a way that they require specific knowledge to use. That is how there are specialists. if all of the magic functioned axactly the same, what would be the point of a specialization? The divination scrolls require a ceartain knowledge of divination to enable their use. If the character doesn't have that knowledge, how can s/he use them? S/he can't.

 

[Camarath]

Re: Re: Nope.

Is this different from taking 1 level of sorcerer to circumvent the restrictions of the specialist wizard? As a sorcerer the wizard can now use items which require the wizard to have spells in their spell list. As a sorcerer these divination spells are also arcane, so the source of the spells hardly matter. This is an official example btw. So I think I agree with Caliban on this one. Only the Divine Oracle levels should be counted for divination spells. This has an added benefit that taking the prestige class is not totally useless for an invoker, but it is hardly very beneficial.

In the end though it is a rediculous combination anyway, so more then likely I would not even allow it. I have the strong urge to add the requirement that the character should be able to cast at least one 2nd level divination spell

Madfox, when you take a lv of sorcerer you gain a new basis for casting spells. Prestige classes that add to your existing ablity to castes do not give you a new ablity cast spells, they enchance your already existing ablity to cast spell with out changing the base properties of your base casting class unless specifically noted in the pestige class (like the geomancer).

This is just like arguing that one can take Sacred Fist prestige class and then take a weapon proficiency and be able to use a weapon with out violating the classes prohibition aginst using weapons because a character with out the prohibition would be able to use the weapon if he took the feat. General ablities never over rule specific prohibitions.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Nope.

Madfox, when you take a lv of sorcerer you gain a new basis for casting spells. Prestige classes that add to your existing ablity to castes do not give you a new ablity cast spells, they enchance your already existing ablity to cast spell with out changing the base properties of your base casting class unless specifically noted in the pestige class (like the geomancer).

When you take levels of Divine Oracle, you do gain a new basis for casting spells: The Divination Domain.

The extra spell slots for the divination domain are seperate from a wizards normal spell-slots, and can only be used to cast the domain spells.

A specialist wizard with Divination as a barred school would not be able to use any of his normal spell-slots to prepare divination spells, but could still use the domain slots.

He just wouldn't have very many domain slots, because his wizard levels wouldn't count toward his caster level in his domain. He would be limited to 5th level spells in the domain at most, and that only when he reached level 9 in the Divine Oracle prestige class.

While he could do it, it really wouldn't gain him a lot of benefit in the spellcasting department. The real benefit comes from the Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

This is just like arguing that one can take Sacred Fist prestige class and then take a weapon proficiency and be able to use a weapon with out violating the classes prohibition aginst using weapons because a character with out the prohibition would be able to use the weapon if he took the feat. General ablities never over rule specific prohibitions.

Specialist wizards do not take an oath to stop using certain spells, they simply never learn how, due to their focused study. There is a difference.

The Sacred Fist guy always has the option of picking up a weapon and using it, even if it violates the class prohibition. He can choose to accept the consequences.

The Specialist wizard does not have a choice when it comes to their banned schools. They simply cannot understand spells from those schools (using knowledge gained from their wizard studies), they cannot activate spell completion or spell trigger items that use spells from their banned schools. However, if they gain another source of learning that does have access to those spells (taking cleric, sorcerer, or Divine Oracle levels for example) they can use those items and spells, but only to the extent that their other class can. Their wizard levels simply don't count.

 

[Cygnus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Nope.

(taking cleric, sorcerer, or Divine Oracle levels for example) they can use those items and spells, but only to the extent that their other class can. Their wizard levels simply don't count.

I agree with most of what you have said; however I disagree with the above section because s/he must enact the DO spells as arcane. Since the spell progression is +1 existing caster level (in this case evoker) s/he is gaining caster levels specifically as an evoker, who is barred from divination. So, the character will gain all of the abilities of the PrC except the ability to cast the divination spells. If all s/he wants is evasion, fine, but to pickup the domain spells, s/he will need gain a level as cleric or sorcerer. The DO spells are different than the cleric and sorcerer spells because those are learned as a completely different class and casting method.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Nope.

I agree with most of what you have said; however I disagree with the above section because s/he must enact the DO spells as arcane. Since the spell progression is +1 existing caster level (in this case evoker) s/he is gaining caster levels specifically as an evoker, who is barred from divination. So, the character will gain all of the abilities of the PrC except the ability to cast the divination spells. If all s/he wants is evasion, fine, but to pickup the domain spells, s/he will need gain a level as cleric or sorcerer. The DO spells are different than the cleric and sorcerer spells because those are learned as a completely different class and casting method.

Hmm... You may be right. I agree that the wizards normal spell slots cannot be used to prepare spells from barred schools.

I was under the impression that the wizard would gain an extra set of domain spell slots (similar to a cleric) when gaining access to the prestige domain. If so, he would be able to prepare the domain spells in these slots (only). If not, then he would be unable to prepare them because he doesn't have any spell slots he can legally prepare them in.

 

[Camarath]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Nope.

When you take levels of Divine Oracle, you do gain a new basis for casting spells: The Divination Domain.

The extra spell slots for the divination domain are seperate from a wizards normal spell-slots, and can only be used to cast the domain spells.

A specialist wizard with Divination as a barred school would not be able to use any of his normal spell-slots to prepare divination spells, but could still use the domain slots.

He just wouldn't have very many domain slots, because his wizard levels wouldn't count toward his caster level in his domain. He would be limited to 5th level spells in the domain at most, and that only when he reached level 9 in the Divine Oracle prestige class.

Wizards do not get domain spells in their spell progression and no addtional spell progression is outlined in the rules. If domains themselves give spell slot then I am wrong and he can use his Domain slot for those spells. But, I have never seen any rule giving arcane casters domain spell slots when they gain domains.

It is a good point about the differance between inablity to perform an action and oaths forbidding an action. But what about my NG cleric who takes the death domain, can I cast the [Evil] description spells in my domain list even though as a good cleric I would normaly be unable to cast [Evil] spells?