Evolution/Revolution of industry

[DungeonmasterCal]

4) Getting more new gamer blood into the industry: Now this is the most important thing in the industry and most of us do nothing to help build this area up. This issue is also plaguing large companies in related industries like Marvel and DC Comics. Since we don’t have anywhere near the same amount of money as these large companies, what can we do? Well here is my simple plan/challenge: Everyone who runs games at our local games stores or at home needs to, for a 3 three month period, run a game at one of your local libraries.

There is no FLGS in my town and when I approached our local library about running games, they flatly told me no....sigh...

 

[nothing to see here]

But to tie this back into the main topic, the reason why those bands I mention don't make as much money or have as many fans as Ice Cube is the same reason PnP games are out-sold by video games. It takes effort and intelligence to appreciate the bands I mentioned above. Its a lot easier to listen to simple jungle beats and inane, repetitive lyrics than it is to find the rhythm in “Guns and the Bible” or to follow the beat of ‘Bouncing Around the Room.” Just like its easier to pop in a video game and play than it is to roll up a bunch of NPCs, draw maps, design a plot, and stat monsters.

Why does it seem like I'm repeating myself.....

I must admit, that sounds a little elitist. Aside from being social distasteful, denigrating another's preferences as intellectually inferior, is based on an incredibly pretentious claim...that your arbitrary (and it is arbitrary) criteria for quality is somehow superior to that of your neighbours.

 

[nothing to see here]

I’ve talked with Anthony Valterra about this (when he was still with WotC) and he told me that there was very little psychological research on gamers available. And he said that such research was very expensive to conduct, so there probably won’t be any for a while.

I am aware of a study done in England several years ago showing that gamers are 10x less likely to engage of acts of violence than the regular population. The same study also suggested that gamers tend to be of slightly higher IQ and are typically more creative than non-gamers.

There was also a study being done a couple of years ago in this country. I took part in the research phase, but I never saw the results.

What psychological research do you know about??

I remember around the time of 3e's launching one of the 3e illuminaries (dancey, I believe) mentioning that the modular 3e ruleset was designed to appeal to a key gamer psychographic -- that being the enjoyment of displaying mastery. This does not speak to gamer's inherent intelligence -- it speaks to their self-defined elitism, and insecurity around demonstrating it.

While I'm no psychologist I can tell you there is an abundance of market research centered around psychographics for particular products. The gamer psychographic (the 'geek' psychographic), has an inherent disdain for popular culture (which can be 'mastered' by mass audiences) and instead prefers subject matter that allows them to single out their particular intellectual strengths. Hence, the tendency towards memorizing the minutiae of certain sci-movies, or enjoyment of strategy games with particular elabourate (and hard to learn) rules structures.

Essentially, if you believe you are smarter than your peers, you can't possibly like what they like, because that would lower you. Instead you focus on mastering the things they do not understand, neverminding that they didn't care much for these subjects in the first place. When faced with their dismissal of your mastery -- you take it not as a refutation based on personal preference (which it is), but as reinforcing their intellectual inability to exist on your level.

 

[lmpjr007]

OK once again I have created ANOTHER thread that seems on the verge of being CLOSED. Do me the favor, and be civil about this thread. I wanted people to give their ideas and opinions not start flame wars. So to put it simple, If you can not communicate nice, DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!!!! This is a thread to help with the futures of RPGs and how we can help each other. LEAVE YOUR EGOS AT THE DOOR!!!!! Thank you.

 

[sirfrancisdrake]

LEAVE YOUR EGOS AT THE DOOR!!!!!

this is really a great statement. I think i've needed to hear this for a long time!

Mike

 

[afstanton]

<-snip->
Essentially, if you believe you are smarter than your peers, you can't possibly like what they like, because that would lower you. Instead you focus on mastering the things they do not understand, neverminding that they didn't care much for these subjects in the first place. When faced with their dismissal of your mastery -- you take it not as a refutation based on personal preference (which it is), but as reinforcing their intellectual inability to exist on your level.

Wow. That's so amazingly true. It very succinctly describes something I've had lurking in my brain for quite some time now.

The reverse is also true - I'm good at science and math, so people assume I'm smart. I try to tell them that people get good at what they are interested in and spend time doing. It's flattering that they consider me smart, but I know I'm bloody incompetent at sports, music, and art. Everyone gets 168 hours per week, and it's up to the individual (for the most part) how they spend that time. Combine that with the fact that people get better at things the more they do them, and of course you have varying degrees of ability in varying fields.

Of course there's always the bit that people who waste a lot of time get really good at...wasting time, and not much else.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Given what I've seen here, I suspect that you're about 2 posts away from claiming that the lurkers agree with you via email.

Nope. I’m about 2 posts from getting this discussion back on track.

While I'm no psychologist I can tell you there is an abundance of market research centered around psychographics for particular products. The gamer psychographic (the 'geek' psychographic), has an inherent disdain for popular culture (which can be 'mastered' by mass audiences) and instead prefers subject matter that allows them to single out their particular intellectual strengths. Hence, the tendency towards memorizing the minutiae of certain sci-movies, or enjoyment of strategy games with particular elabourate (and hard to learn) rules structures.

Essentially, if you believe you are smarter than your peers, you can't possibly like what they like, because that would lower you. Instead you focus on mastering the things they do not understand, neverminding that they didn't care much for these subjects in the first place. When faced with their dismissal of your mastery -- you take it not as a refutation based on personal preference (which it is), but as reinforcing their intellectual inability to exist on your level.

So you’re calling me a geek? By your own admission, most people reading this thread are geeks, so I’m not sure that’s really a bad thing. Furthermore, the behaviors you describe (the tendency towards memorizing the minutiae of certain sci-movies) also applies to sports fans who memorize player stats, and team records etc.

Actually, I am just a few credit hours away from having a BS in industrial/organizational psychology with minors in business management and marketing. I’ve studied consumer psychology and psychographics in college just recently. And I really could not have explained that any better than you did.

However, there is something fundamental that you are missing. No matter what method of psychological classification you are using to define people (personality trait theory, behaviorism, psychographics etc) you can always define them with negative terms. For example, people who are into watching professional sports often have very low self-esteem. They have a desire to associate themselves with something external that wins so they can go around saying “We won.” And “My team won.” And “We are going to the championship “ Etc. They are trying to bolster their low self-esteem by associating themselves with something that wins, so they can feel better about themselves. That is most evidenced by the fact that sports teams that enter a winning streak suddenly gain more fans and when that streak ends, they lose fans. That’s pretty pathetic, IMO. But, again, psychologists say stuff like that about everyone. In fact, Freud once said “I have found very little about people that is good. In my experience most of them are trash.”

Furthermore, psychographics is a marketing tool, not a psychological assessment tool. Psychographics are really in that gray area between psychology and sociology. To understand my personality (or anyone else’s) I’d advise using the personality trait method (which I have written extensively about in the Book of Broken Dreams). According to that methodology, my psychological profile falls somewhere in the mildly anti-social category with influences from a few other areas as well. That’s why I am so intolerant of so many things. I don’t like most things or people. That’s just the way I am. I don’t even like the cliché “98% of everything is crap.”

BTW, I suspect that eyebeams has a schizotypal personality, and that’s why he is saying many of the things he’s saying. (“creative bankruptcy,” and “It should not be beneath gamers to sup from the very pablum they ground between the two halves of their self-loathing.”)

And just so Eyebeams doesn’t get offended by that, I AM NOT saying you are psychologically disordered. EVERYONE has a personality of some sort. If you didn’t have a personality (Avoidant, Borderline, Paranoid, Anti-social, dependent, schizotypal, histrionic, Schizoid, etc) you’d be catatonic. In fact, the schizotypal personality type is probably the best one to have if you are going to be a game designer, since they tend to be more creative than other people.

Anyway.

So is this the appropriate time to accuse you of hypocrisy?

No, but you can call me a realist.

Compared to playing RPGs? Surely you can't be implying something as ridiculous as the idea that there are more RPGers thanat minimum) rec football players?

No. Reread the thread. I was comparing the number of sports players Vs the number of spectators, not the number of football players Vs the number of RPG players.

And, as an interesting side point, note that high school kids are FORCED to play football (in gym class) while some high schools still ban RPGs. That's culture for ya.

You're dliberately missing the point. The first time it was a good idea. The second time there might be hope for a superior product. The 3rd to xth time? Give me a bloody break. And that' 3rd to Xth is where the majority are.

I simply disagree. I wrote the first d20 stone age product to appear on RPGow back in 2001. Since then, there has been 3 or 4 similar books put out by other people. All have their good points. All are useful in one way or another. And, because of the advantages of e-publishing and the OGL, I am about to release a revised version of the Primal Codex that incorporates some of the best OGC from those other sources.

That’s evolution of the industry and I don’t see anything wrong with it. If ten more companies decided to publish d20 stone age supplements, I’d welcome all of them.

Resisting the urge to sling more mud with Eyebeams (and provide yall with more free entertainment ) I’ll stop here.

Later, I plan to sum up the important points of this conversation, make a few last comments to get us back on track and help us start thinking about things that we can DO, rather than just talk about. Then, I’ll shut up.

 

[GMSkarka]

Wow.

Resurrecting a thread after almost 2 weeks have gone by, so that you can get the last word in.

Can't match that. Congrats--U hav 1 teh intarw3b.