Evolution/Revolution of industry

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Stepping stone

sirfrancisdrake said:
I wonder if OGL was really a great revolution for the industry, since people don't have to worry about coming up with their own worlds, since they can use a pre-existing one.

Mike

Personally I don't equate creativity only with the ability to create your own world. Or write your personal own rpg system.

Creativity can show up anywhere, in adventure writing, in writing a small but brilliant rule that plugs into an existing system, or adding to an existing world.

So the existence of eg the d20 system, means that many writers can funnel their creativity into creating plugins and addons, without having to create a rules system that reaches 10 people on average.

Existing systems and worlds that allow addons are to me stepping stones, tools to let me focus my creativity on other stuff, instead of reinventing the wheel (or D&D). I certainly don't see their existance as obstacles.

Cheers!

M.
 

Bloodstone Press said:
the reason why those bands I mention don't make as much money or have as many fans as Ice Cube is the same reason PnP games are out-sold by video games. It takes effort and intelligence to appreciate the bands I mentioned above.

Oh please.

Read what you wrote again. You are, in effect, insulting people who like Ice Cube over the stuff you like.

I can't stand a number of the bands you listed. In fact, I flat out detest them. So, is it that I am not putting in the effort to enjoy them? Or is it because I don't have the intelligence to appreciate them?

What we are dealing with here is, in my opinion, elitism, not intelligence.

Or, to quote Robin Law, courtesy of Maggan's sig: "The tendency to confuse personal taste with objective quality is nearly universal.”
 
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Bloodstone Press said:
But to tie this back into the main topic, the reason why those bands I mention don't make as much money or have as many fans as Ice Cube is the same reason PnP games are out-sold by video games. It takes effort and intelligence to appreciate the bands I mentioned above.

I disagree on two points.

Firstly, the 'effort and intelligence' argument. It would be nice if it were true, because that would then make all of us pen-and-paper people inherently smarter and more hard-working than video game players. As it is, as far as music is concerned, it's not really about effort or intelligence at all, it's about taste.

Secondly, the main reason why PnP games are out-sold by video games is simply that you can pick up a video game and play it, on your own, whenever you like. PnP games require, at a minimum, two people, with a space to play in and a lack of disturbance. It's more a matter of convenience and accessability than anything else.

Hence, the rapidly increasing MMO market - the human connection of PnP with the ready accessability of video games. It's no coincidence that, for example, City of Villains' head designer is Zeb 'Planescape' Cook.
 

First of all, I apologize to Justin for ruining his fun. :D

Second of all, can we please tone it down a notch, gents? A little more fact and a little less verbal assault would be greatly appreciated.
 

The horrible truth is that there is woefully little objective psychological research to support or refute your statement. However, what research does exist contradicts your statement (and no, I can't find a link to it).

You should get more familiar with fallacies in reasoning. I hear that people with larger shoe sides are more likely to have beards, too.

White males with college educations having less problems? Who woulda thunk it! If you don't know why this isn't a reason to pat yourself on the back (and I can't tell you here at ENWorld, so don't ask), then really, this discourse is at an end.

Please, please don't get me started on professional sports.... let me just point out that very few people actually PLAY baseball or Football. The vast majority of people simply sit on the couch and WATCH... because its a lot easier.... Yeah they like to say that football has something to do with strategy. IMO, it has a LOT more to do with skill (of the PLAYER), randomness, and luck. Chess is a game of strategy.

Actually, plenty of people play football. And football requires a significant amount of strategic thinking. My point, though is if you have nothing but contempt for the average person, your games will be shallow and poorly thought out. You don't take pop culture at its word, but when you ignore it, you're simply engaging in your own "dumbing down."

I have no idea who he is or why that's important.

Oh. That is most unfortunate.

I have actually written fairly long games with no violence, no sex, and no stupidity.

But you churn out games about pulp ninjas in WW2,

Yeah I have actually (its part of my job to do stuff like that). And you know what, the vast majority of RPG book covers are void of any sort of "porn." Some books have lewd images on the cover, but those usually get a lot of flak from the community too (and they probably get boosts in sales too).

Saying, "Only the art that actually features women degrades them," does not refute my point.

I'm not sure what you mean by "tagged," but I'm pretty sure that was just a rumor. You know, like a practical joke? I really don’t know or care about her though, so I could be wrong. Please don’t bring her up again.

Sure I will. And tell me: What's so not-pop-culture about the Star Wars RPG? Don't dodge the bullet, d00d.

And.. umm.... without going into a long speech about artistic forms and such, all I can say is there is nothing new under the sun. And no, you’re not going to drag me into an argument about the semantics of “alternatives” and “emulations.”

That's not my point. My point is that every successful RPG feeds off of a pop culture motif not because of mere coincidence, but intentionally. Like your use of "1930s gangsters, Lovecraftian horror, or archaeological adventure," to sell 1948.

I think, perhaps, that you are pop culture (wrestling, hip hop, football, baseball etc.). I'm not so sure that I am.

Yes, yes, I'm sure you believe that's a subtextual insult. Moving on . . .

I'm not quite sure if you are still talking about what I think you are talking about... but if you are I disagree. I think the only thing left between these poles is the hybrid video/PnP game I suggested several posts ago.

The trouble is that hardcore videogame players *already* roleplay, either in the confines of the MMO envirinment or in ancillary hobbies like blogging and communities. One of the problems designers will have to bear is that the public loves roleplaying now, but finds roleplaying *games* largely unnecessary.

Whoa.... I didn't even notice you said this until just now.
1. You will find no elves in any of the books I have written. Further, there are no elves in 1948 or in the Primal Legends setting. (though they are allowed for if the DM wants them)
2. You know it takes time to do the things we game designers do. I wish I could just pop out all the ideas I've got for tweaking the system this way and bending it that way. I wish I could write books as fast as I can think of them. But I can't. And I have other things I need to do. And, really, other things I want to do. Remember we started from scratch just a few years ago. What if it was 2001 right now and you wanted to play a sci-fi game? A stone age game? a pirate game? A WWII game? A Steam Tech game?

There's the problem in your last sentence. The "Genre? Genre? Or maybe genre?" formula has been done to death. It only works if you attempt definitive treatments or create an affinity for a specific setting. .pdf works for the latter because it's an uncharted niche. Gareth can do pulp and I can do cyberpunk because it hasn't been done in a successful fashion for that market before. But there's more to it.

The other overcooked turkey is elevator pitch RPGs? "It's Cthulhu meets Evangelion meets Doc Savage!" Yawn. These treatments lack cohesion 90% of the time and are ultimately disposible.

A lot of people reading this thread have been working real hard for the past several years to create a LOT of material. Does some of it suck? Sure. But there are a lot of gems out there too. I don't think it is right or fair for you to characterize almost everyone but Monte as doing nothing original.

Sturgeon's Law applies to games. My corrolary to it is, "98%" of new companies *aspire* to crap." This applies the filter somewhat more tightly.

I'm dead weight and should give up??

I wasn't judging your work.
 



Oh please.

Read what you wrote again. You are, in effect, insulting people who like Ice Cube over the stuff you like.

I can't stand a number of the bands you listed. In fact, I flat out detest them. So, is it that I am not putting in the effort to enjoy them? Or is it because I don't have the intelligence to appreciate them?

What we are dealing with here is, in my opinion, elitism, not intelligence.

I've been waiting for someone to say this.

I think perhaps you don't like it because your tastes are different. I do know from other posts you've made that you have a fairly eclectic interest in music that I can not and do not find inferior.
You like things that I don't like, but I can at least see the artistic value in your tastes in music.

However, what I am getting at isn't elitism. I know it sounds that way, and I'm surprised it took this long for someone to bring it up. I noticed I was sounding that way several posts ago.

What I am getting at is that EVERYONE (me included) is mentally lazy. This is a principle of psychology. everyone has an innate desire to follow the path of least resistance. Work sucks. Why work to have fun, or work to appreciate art when it is easier to have it spoon fed to you?

To take it back to music for a minute, I used the phrase "jungle beats" to allude to the fact that even classic rock and roll (my favorite type of music) is a dumbed-down form of music compared to what came before (big band or classical, or even jazz). Of course opinions differ on that... but this isn't really about music...

My point is that anything easier and stupider, is likely to be more popular. Because everyone prefers to follow the path of least resistance. I'd love to be able to sit around and play video games all day right now rather than sitting around playing PnP games. But I don't because the video game thing is a waste of my time and money. By contrast, the PnP game thing is an investment of my time and money. It certainly isn't easier. Its work. Yeah, its a lot more fun and rewarding that other forms of work, but it is still work (for example, I should be updating my web site right now, but instead I'm talking to yall... because its easier and more fun.)
Now, is it elitism to think that politics is more important than football?

Is it elitism to think that something other than "the same old beat" is good music

Is it elitism to think the acting in professional wrestling is flat out silly?

Is it elitism to acknowledge that PnP games take a certain level of comprehension, patience, and imagination, that not everyone has?

If it is, than I stand guilty as accused.

I just think people should deliberately work against the dragging down of society. What's the value in reality TV? Who gives a crap about Tom Cruise's marriage? Why the hell is that stuff important to anyone when real, important things are going on.... Why would you want to listen to "I like to move it, move" when you can listen to so much else?

Of course all that is beside the point. The real question that we are getting at here is:
Why would you want to play a video game when you can play a PnP game?

And Arnwyn has answered that for us very well.

And his comments prove my thesis correct. The threat we face from video games is the greatest threat to our industry. For many of the various reasons that I have cited (the life-like aspects of live play and the ease of play) for many of the reasons that Arnwyn cited (better stories, better value), and the reason recently suggested by Cavelorn (the fact that you can play by yourself).

These are all reasons why video games are “superior” to PnP games in terms of sales volume. The question now is, what can we do about it?

And…. Well, I refer you to my previous posts.
 
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Cost of donation to keep EN World up and running: $50

Cost of not working at standard billable hourly rate: $250

Sitting back and enjoying the GMS-BP show: Priceless

[sticks another popcorn bag in the microwave and gets comfy]

[begs moderators not to shut down most entertaining thread of the year]

Nah.. the fun is between me and eyebeams ;)

Gareth is boring.
 

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