Evolution/Revolution of industry

[Bloodstone Press]

I didn't say "makes more money" (and, in fact, made sure I didn't say that). I said, essentially, that they're not inferior because they're more popular - for good reasons. Video games, for me (and, as I noted in my first post, many others) are actually the superior format, for many reasons - and it should come as no surprise that it blows the niche market of PnP games out of the water.

I knew what you meant.... You are, in fact, just the sort of person I'm talking about.

Video games are comparable in price (per product item) to PnP games but require far less work to use, don't require another person to actually put the game together and run it (the far-too-overworked DM), doesn't require any other people to play, involve no scheduling conflicts, provide a multi-media experience (music and visuals), and more often than not include a story that most DMs, IMO/IME, couldn't hope to base a game on (and run successfully). IMO, video games are in no way inferior to PnP games, and there should be no surprise as to their popularity. And it isn't simply because they "make more money" (though that is the final result). Overall, they provide a superior experience. And that's what's important.

(Note, though, that PnP games do provide a "different" experience - and even if providing an inferior overall experience for "the masses", has strengths (that you alluded to) that video games couldn't hope to compete with. Accentuate the strengths, and PnP has a chance. But as a direct competitor to video games? Nuh-uh. PnP games are dead before they even get out of the gate.)

Yeah. You are exactly the sort of person I'm talking about. I agree completely. Why are we arguing again??

Because I said PnP games are not as superior to video games as they once were? We both agree that video games provide an overall better experience for the player. I still find PnP games to be superior because I like the creative flexibility they offer the DM. But I can foresee a time (and indeed I yearn for the time) when video games can rival PnP games in the creative flexibility. You, on the other hand, feel that video games have completely eclipsed PnP games already.

In other words, we seem to have slightly differing opinions based on our interests, but we agree on the facts. Video games provide a better overall experience for the player and are doing a lot better job of offering flexibility. In my opinion they still lag behind (but not by much). In your opinion, there is no contest.

I repeat from my earlier post

I do think it (PnP games) would have broader appeal if it were more user friendly, less complicated, faster to calculate, easier to envision, A simpler smoother interface is what is needed to compete with video games.

On the subject of PnP superiority, you said:

I also agree with this. But "better tools for creativity" has little to do with improving the lot of the PnP game industry when put against video games (especially if you're considering video games as an actual competitor to PnP games - are they?).

I agree with you that that isn't enough to improve the lot of the PnP industry. And I believe that they are competitors (as stated above). And I also think that, based on your comments above, they are competitors in your mind as well. You have already weighed many of the common aspects of each format and selected the one you think is better. That’s the buying process in action. The fact that you are a consumer of both, and you actively weigh one against the other in your mind, shows that they are competitors.

Lastly, "Arnwyn" strikes me as somewhat feminine.... I apologize about the he/she thing...

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Uh, no. Perhaps you've been watching too much TV:


. . .where image takes precedence over wisdom
Where sound bite politics are served to
the fastfood culture
Where straight teeth in your mouth
are more important than the words
that come out of it
-- Disposible Heroes of Hiphoprisy, "Television, Drug of the Nation."

Hell, Ice Cube knows his math...

PUH-LEEZE!

First of all, I know several people with degrees in music theory. One of my best friends has a PHD in music theory (he also got a perfect score on the ACT and is a mathematical genius). He can do college level calculus and trigonometry and uses equations to write music. The best you can say is "Ice Cube knows his math"

Really. I bet Ice Cube couldn't figure out what the average damage is for a 10th level fighter with a +2 long sword that is hitting on a 15 or better and striking critical hits on a 19-20.

Seriously, pick up some of this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-5728307-6921733
or this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-5728307-6921733
or this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-5728307-6921733
or this
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-5728307-6921733
or especially this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-5728307-6921733
(its Psychafunkadoobalicious.)

Take it to your next "Hip Hop” party. See what the fans of Ice Cube think of “Mechanically Separated Chicken,” or the “Black Lady of Espionage,” or “Last Chance to Trance Dance. “

You can bet they won't like it.

Why??

I could go into detail about it, but I suspect that documentary Warden mentioned explains it a lot better than I could.

But to tie this back into the main topic, the reason why those bands I mention don't make as much money or have as many fans as Ice Cube is the same reason PnP games are out-sold by video games. It takes effort and intelligence to appreciate the bands I mentioned above. Its a lot easier to listen to simple jungle beats and inane, repetitive lyrics than it is to find the rhythm in “Guns and the Bible” or to follow the beat of ‘Bouncing Around the Room.” Just like its easier to pop in a video game and play than it is to roll up a bunch of NPCs, draw maps, design a plot, and stat monsters.

Why does it seem like I'm repeating myself.....

 

[jmucchiello]

Those links don't work. Amazon stores the search criteria on their server for about 10 minutes, then dumps it. You need to tell us what you were searching for.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Sorry everyone, I just couldn't let this go:

The horrible truth is that gaming is not an elite hobby. Gamers are not particularly smart or insightful people (and it's worth nothing that the last 3 gamers I've met have been through my job as a remedial educator).

The horrible truth is that there is woefully little objective psychological research to support or refute your statement. However, what research does exist contradicts your statement (and no, I can't find a link to it).

Games do not have particularly difficult math. Baseball's math is harder. Football's organizational and strategic demands exceed those of RPGs.

Please, please don't get me started on professional sports.... let me just point out that very few people actually PLAY baseball or Football. The vast majority of people simply sit on the couch and WATCH... because its a lot easier.... Yeah they like to say that football has something to do with strategy. IMO, it has a LOT more to do with skill (of the PLAYER), randomness, and luck. Chess is a game of strategy.

Stupidity, violence and sex? Violence is considered so essential to play that Greg Costikyan wrote a short game to parody it.

I have no idea who he is or why that's important. I have actually written fairly long games with no violence, no sex, and no stupidity.

Sex? Have you looked at RPG covers' portrayals of woman compared to anything besides fannish art and porn (and the occasionally overly close intersection between the two)?

Yeah I have actually (its part of my job to do stuff like that). And you know what, the vast majority of RPG book covers are void of any sort of "porn." Some books have lewd images on the cover, but those usually get a lot of flak from the community too (and they probably get boosts in sales too).

The basic narrative elements of RPGs are not alternatives to anything. They are emulations of the most popular print and filmic entertainment genres in the world. Hell, Paris Hilton was tagged to star in the D&D movie sequel, wasn't she? The most popular SF game is based on the most popular SF film series?

I'm not sure what you mean by "tagged," but I'm pretty sure that was just a rumor. You know, like a practical joke? I really don’t know or care about her though, so I could be wrong. Please don’t bring her up again.

And.. umm.... without going into a long speech about artistic forms and such, all I can say is there is nothing new under the sun. And no, you’re not going to drag me into an argument about the semantics of “alternatives” and “emulations.”

We *are* pop culture...

I think, perhaps, that you are pop culture (wrestling, hip hop, football, baseball etc.). I'm not so sure that I am.

Now the pendulum of shame has swung the other way, so that having any "artistic" ambition is considered arrogant.

Is it?? I really don't agree with that all.

The only thing left between these two poles is the very pop culture mediocrity you decry, but fan-approved practices contribute to.

I'm not quite sure if you are still talking about what I think you are talking about... but if you are I disagree. I think the only thing left between these poles is the hybrid video/PnP game I suggested several posts ago.

It should not be beneath gamers to sup from the very pablum they ground between the two halves of their self-loathing.

Right.

The entertainment industry does have the advantge, though, because it is hungry for something gamers are not: novelty. Novelty may be a new coat of paint on an old surface, but it *is* new. And this hobby's failure to renew its image -- its hatred of any change to its image -- means that it can't do that.

I see what you are saying, but I don't totally agree. I think things are more complicated than that.

Even wthin the limited subset of D20 and WotC OGL-derived games, this creative bankruptcy is pervasive. Mike Mearls has commented on how the system is rarely used to its potential in favour of continuing retreads. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed showed that having even the minimal bravery to abandon frickin' elves has a payoff, but with almost anyone else I can expect a long march of books about copyright-sanitized drow or an endless selection of 5x5 flagstone floorplans (with the occasional archway or stalagmite for "originality").

Whoa.... I didn't even notice you said this until just now.
1. You will find no elves in any of the books I have written. Further, there are no elves in 1948 or in the Primal Legends setting. (though they are allowed for if the DM wants them)
2. You know it takes time to do the things we game designers do. I wish I could just pop out all the ideas I've got for tweaking the system this way and bending it that way. I wish I could write books as fast as I can think of them. But I can't. And I have other things I need to do. And, really, other things I want to do. Remember we started from scratch just a few years ago. What if it was 2001 right now and you wanted to play a sci-fi game? A stone age game? a pirate game? A WWII game? A Steam Tech game?

A lot of people reading this thread have been working real hard for the past several years to create a LOT of material. Does some of it suck? Sure. But there are a lot of gems out there too. I don't think it is right or fair for you to characterize almost everyone but Monte as doing nothing original.

I'll say what I've said before: I understand the need for broadly appealing products, but if publishers can't go past that and make a leap of faith into something distinct ( not even original), then you should give up. You're dead weight.

I'm dead weight and should give up??

Dude, I haven't even started yet.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Those links don't work. Amazon stores the search criteria on their server for about 10 minutes, then dumps it. You need to tell us what you were searching for.

that sucks

links to their web sites then:
http://www.mmw.net/

http://www.ozrics.com/

http://www.phish.com/

http://www.negativland.com/

http://www.gsbe.com/

You can get some free stuff from the negativland site.. they don't really like copyrights.

I know most of the guys in the GSBE.

 

[GMSkarka]

Oh, fer chrissakes.....enough is enough.

The horrible truth is that there is woefully little objective psychological research to support or refute your statement. However, what research does exist contradicts your statement (and no, I can't find a link to it).

Wrong. HUGELY wrong. So wrong as to be staggering.

I have no idea who he is or why that's important.

This doesn't surprise me in the least.

What if it was 2001 right now and you wanted to play a sci-fi game? A stone age game? a pirate game? A WWII game? A Steam Tech game?

Hmmm...2001? Gosh, that long ago?

Let's see:

Sci-fi game? Traveller, released in 1978. Many others since then.
Stone Age Game? OG, released in 1995.
World War II? Behind Enemy Lines, released in 1982.
Steam Tech? Castle Falkenstein, 1994...


The moral of the story here: If you don't know what you're talking about, perhaps you shouldn't be talking about it. It's just embarassing.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Yeah, those are all great d20 supplements.

Really Gareth, I don't have time right now to play this game with you.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Ugh! Just… can’t… help... my… self

Wrong. HUGELY wrong. So wrong as to be staggering.

links? More info???

I’ve talked with Anthony Valterra about this (when he was still with WotC) and he told me that there was very little psychological research on gamers available. And he said that such research was very expensive to conduct, so there probably won’t be any for a while.

I am aware of a study done in England several years ago showing that gamers are 10x less likely to engage of acts of violence than the regular population. The same study also suggested that gamers tend to be of slightly higher IQ and are typically more creative than non-gamers.

There was also a study being done a couple of years ago in this country. I took part in the research phase, but I never saw the results.

What psychological research do you know about??

Eyebeams said

Even wthin the limited subset of D20 and WotC OGL-derived games, this creative bankruptcy is pervasive. Mike Mearls has commented on how the system is rarely used to its potential in favour of continuing retreads. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed showed that having even the minimal bravery to abandon frickin' elves has a payoff, but with almost anyone else I can expect a long march of books about copyright-sanitized drow or an endless selection of 5x5 flagstone floorplans (with the occasional archway or stalagmite for "originality").

(emphesis mine)
So I said, “hey a lot of d20 publishers have been working real hard and doing a lot of good work in recent years.” (paraphrasing, of course)

Then here you come saying:

Sci-fi game? Traveller, released in 1978. Many others since then.
Stone Age Game? OG, released in 1995.
World War II? Behind Enemy Lines, released in 1982.
Steam Tech? Castle Falkenstein, 1994...

Yeah, but I don’t think eyebreams, Mike Mearls, or I, was talking about non-d20 systems…

I think the moral of the story is that you shouldn’t jump into conversations that you can’t keep up with.

 

[GMSkarka]

Yeah, but I don’t think eyebreams, Mike Mearls, or I, was talking about non-d20 systems…

So your point was that there were no d20 supplements before there was a d20 license?

Wow.

That's even stupider than what I had thought you were saying.


...and my point in listing those products is that the concepts were out there, and have been for a long time. Doing D20 entires for those same genres hardly represents a great leap forward in creativity.

But hey, I once heard of a study done somewhere that said gamers were all badass and kewl and smart and stuff, so that must be true.

 

[Arnwyn]

I agree completely. Why are we arguing again??

Uh... I dunno. Slow day at the office?

Indeed, I do agree with you (in terms of video games, at least), except the part of "traditional mid-90's" games. I still found Final Fantasy 4, 5, and 6 an overall superior experience.

Because I said PnP games are not as superior to video games as they once were?

Yeah, the "once were" part. Everyone draws the line somewhere - and I'd have to go way back (NES or earlier) before I'd begin to agree with the "once were" part.

Lastly, "Arnwyn" strikes me as somewhat feminine.... I apologize about the he/she thing...

Yeah, it's the "wyn" part. (But I don't mind - it's the internet! I could be a 3-headed alien for all anyone knows... or cares...)