Evolution/Revolution of industry

[Bloodstone Press]

So your point was that there were no d20 supplements before there was a d20 license?

Wow.

That's even stupider than what I had thought you were saying.

no Gareth. I was pointing out that you have been working very hard on D20 and have done some great work and Eyebeams shouldn't insult you and say that you just churn out books about elves.

I guess you can't tell when someone is being nice to you.

But hey, I once heard of a study done somewhere that said gamers were all badass and kewl and smart and stuff, so that must be true.

That conflicts with your previous statement that i am wrong about the psychological research that has been done on gamers. I'm still waiting for you to back that up and show me how "staggeringly" wrong I am.

Or do you now concede that I'm right?

Please stop talking to me, Gareth. I really can't take your attitude. If you have something useful and constructive to contribute to the conversation, please do so. But stop combing through my posts looking for things to argue with me about. People a lot smarter than you have tried (and failed) at that.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Yeah, the "once were" part. Everyone draws the line somewhere - and I'd have to go way back (NES or earlier) before I'd begin to agree with the "once were" part.

Thanks for that. I was about to ask you that very question.

I think its crucial for us to understand where this line is in the minds of many of the people who play PnP games.

Firstly, the 'effort and intelligence' argument. It would be nice if it were true, because that would then make all of us pen-and-paper people inherently smarter and more hard-working than video game players. As it is, as far as music is concerned, it's not really about effort or intelligence at all, it's about taste.

Well, don't forget that there isn't as many young people playing PnP games as there used to be. A lot of the reason that anyone plays PnP games today is the old psychological principle of consistancy. We play PnP games because that is what we do. Its what we've done for a long time. It is part of our self concept.

The trick is to convince video game players that PnP games are better, and my point is that is a very hard argument to make. And it gets harder every day. IMO, that's mainly because teaching someone who is used to video games to roll up a PC and figure attack bonuses and saving throws is more difficult than playing a video game. PnP games need to be as easy as video games or they will always be a niche market (which is what LPJ is trying to change). Will that niche market eventually die out?

I don't know. But I bet Gareth can actually prove himself useful and tell us something about industry trends over the past 6-12 months. That would give us a clue.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Actually, plenty of people play football.

There is almost 300,000,000 people in America. How many of them play football?

What's so not-pop-culture about the Star Wars RPG? Don't dodge the bullet,

Um... nothing... did I say that Star Wars wasn't pop culture? (of course I don't play star wars RPGs either... though I'd like to)

d00d.

See. More dumbing down. Then they wonder why our kids can't spell. Didn't you say you were a remedial teacher?

But you churn out games about pulp ninjas in WW2,

Yeah, because that's what sells.

Saying, "Only the art that actually features women degrades them," does not refute my point.

You need to take a long hard look at how you view women. I don't deny that the sort of images you describe exist, I just don't think it is as pervasive as you claim. Especially in 3.x.

That's not my point. My point is that every successful RPG feeds off of a pop culture motif not because of mere coincidence, but intentionally. Like your use of "1930s gangsters, Lovecraftian horror, or archaeological adventure," to sell 1948.

I guess I will have to go into a detailed discussion about this. First of all, people like things they are familiar with. Things that are new strange or different don't usually do as well. Furthermore, 1948 is a "safe" product line in that it can be easily described and is similar to "other pop culture motifs." So it will find an audience easier. Now, after I've been at this for a few more years, you might see me do some more risky concepts, but for now, I'm going to stick with what works.

And, we need people like Gareth to be pumping out retreads of Nazis and rocket men because no one has done that for d20 yet. So you shouldn't criticize him for relying on pre-existing cultural icons. After that's all been done, then I'll agree with you that we need to move on and do something more creative.

The trouble is that hardcore video game players *already* role play, either in the confines of the MMO environment or in ancillary hobbies like blogging and communities. One of the problems designers will have to bear is that the public loves roleplaying now, but finds roleplaying *games* largely unnecessary.

I agree with that too. Yet another reason why video games are "superior" to PnP games (In terms of customers).

There's the problem in your last sentence. The "Genre? Genre? Or maybe genre?" formula has been done to death.

Has it? I think this is probably the crux of our disagreement. I don't think we've tapped out all the traditional possibilities yet. A lot of ground has been covered, as I pointed out before, but there is still some work to do in some obvious areas. But I think the work that has ALREADY BEEN DONE is good and mostly useful. If it hadn't been done, there would be a need for it.

I just disagree with your negative attitude toward the bulk of d20 material.

I was talking about a subset of the total body of work of RPGs, not commenting on D20/OGL design being limited.

Right. You said

Even within the limited subset of D20 and WotC OGL-derived games, this creative bankruptcy is pervasive.

My point is that the vast majority of gamers only play d20. Prior to 2001, there was no d20 option for stone age gaming or sci-fi gaming. It might be a pop-culture retread to write a book about robots or archers, but there was a need for those things because such books didn't exist for d20.

I don't think that makes "almost everyone but Monte" worthy of scorn.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

Not involved in this discussion but anyone who writes RPG material should have heard of Greg Costikyan.

that's cool. I've heard of some of his work and I've seen "Designer X" somewhere before. Didn't recognize his name though. It's interesting that

Lately, his studies have tended towards mobile phone game design, and Costikyan has been writing and consulting for Nokia.

Seems he's a step ahead of the rest of us.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

one other thing, Here:

White males with college educations having less problems? Who woulda thunk it! If you don't know why this isn't a reason to pat yourself on the back (and I can't tell you here at ENWorld, so don't ask), then really, this discourse is at an end.

you seem to be saying that objective research showing gamers to be fairly normal is flawed because the sample is skewed to favor white college males. But previously you said, based on your own personal anecdotal evidence, that most gamers were less than normal.

So, are you saying that white college males are dysfunctional? Are you saying anecdotal evidence trumps objective research?

Are you sure you're not assuming that college kids are gamers, when you should be thinking that gamers are college kids?

 

[eyebeams]

There is almost 300,000,000 people in America. How many of them play football?

Compared to playing RPGs? Surely you can't be implying something as ridiculous as the idea that there are more RPGers thanat minimum) rec football players?

Um... nothing... did I say that Star Wars wasn't pop culture? (of course I don't play star wars RPGs either... though I'd like to)

Then you're all about teh pop culture, d00d. Sorry.

See. More dumbing down. Then they wonder why our kids can't spell. Didn't you say you were a remedial teacher?

Actually, it's called irony, d00d. Irony is the contextual exploration of implied meanings that differ from the literal meaning of a given text.

Yeah, because that's what sells.

So is this the appropriate time to accuse you of hypocrisy?

You need to take a long hard look at how you view women.

It depends on the woman, really. Is your argument degrading so rapidly that these halfhearted ad hominems are necessary . . . d00d?

I don't deny that the sort of images you describe exist, I just don't think it is as pervasive as you claim. Especially in 3.x.

We're not really limiting our conversation to the WotC core books, are we? And yes, it is. Really, take a look outside the

I guess I will have to go into a detailed discussion about this. First of all, people like things they are familiar with. Things that are new strange or different don't usually do as well. Furthermore, 1948 is a "safe" product line in that it can be easily described and is similar to "other pop culture motifs." So it will find an audience easier. Now, after I've been at this for a few more years, you might see me do some more risky concepts, but for now, I'm going to stick with what works.

So in other words, your entire argument about RPGs being more sophisticated fare is something you cannot even put into practice yourself.

Perhaps the reason these "sophisticated" gamers you speak of are buying mixed motif stuff is because your argument was specious to begin with. Gamers are not especially smart folks. They -- and you -- feed from the same cultural trough as anybody else. The most popular genres in gaming are the most popular ones in fiction and film.

You're just not special, and neither are your friends.

And, we need people like Gareth to be pumping out retreads of Nazis and rocket men because no one has done that for d20 yet. So you shouldn't criticize him for relying on pre-existing cultural icons. After that's all been done, then I'll agree with you that we need to move on and do something more creative.

Gareth's work is not "less creative." It fills a niche in a particular fashion. But these opportunities are not as comon and open as you are saying. The vast majority of products have been useless fantasy retreads.

Has it? I think this is probably the crux of our disagreement. I don't think we've tapped out all the traditional possibilities yet. A lot of ground has been covered, as I pointed out before, but there is still some work to do in some obvious areas. But I think the work that has ALREADY BEEN DONE is good and mostly useful. If it hadn't been done, there would be a need for it.

No, not really. RPGNow and companies give the illusion that they are filling a demand, but past basic niche-filling, they aren't. The vast majority of products sell poorly and do not generate repeat demand. The cynical part of me thinks that this is why publishing "companies" asked RPGNow to get rid of specific sales numbers. When they were there, you got to see that the balance of game supplement sales there can't even crack 50 copies.

My point is that the vast majority of gamers only play d20. Prior to 2001, there was no d20 option for stone age gaming or sci-fi gaming. It might be a pop-culture retread to write a book about robots or archers, but there was a need for those things because such books didn't exist for d20.

You're dliberately missing the point. The first time it was a good idea. The second time there might be hope for a superior product. The 3rd to xth time? Give me a bloody break. And that' 3rd to Xth is where the majority are.

 

[eyebeams]

one other thing, Here:

you seem to be saying that objective research showing gamers to be fairly normal is flawed because the sample is skewed to favor white college males. But previously you said, based on your own personal anecdotal evidence, that most gamers were less than normal.

No. Most gamers are no better, smarter or more creative than anybody else. You totally misunderstood me. RPGs are associated with lower rates of some social problems because the majority of gamers are upper middle class white males. Gaming does not get rid of their problems. Western civilization representing centuries of effort to make life the best for this segment of the population is what gives them fewer problems.

Gaming doesn't make anyone special.

 

[Eosin the Red]

I'm special, my momma tells me so.

 

[Mokona]

The RPG game industry has evolved significantly in at least one way: Ryan Dancey made the novel idea of Open Source gaming possible. D&D's lead on Open Source RPG rules hasn't only bred an entire industry of hangers on it has also cause other companies to front their own Open Source RPG rules. That is a major evolution. I'm sure there are other evolutions that I can't identify.

Another evolution in gaming is prepainted miniatures (first with Mage Knight). I never used miniatures for RPGs before because painting and assembly were a pain. Now I use toys...I mean prepainted figures for my gaming.

Big gaming companies are constantly trying to get new customers into the hobby. Witness The Wheel of Time RPG, the D&D Basic Game at Toys R Us, DC Comics Super Hero game by Games Workshop, World Wide D&D Game Day, etc.

 

[GMSkarka]

Please stop talking to me, Gareth. I really can't take your attitude. If you have something useful and constructive to contribute to the conversation, please do so. But stop combing through my posts looking for things to argue with me about. People a lot smarter than you have tried (and failed) at that.

Perhaps people are "failing" at arguing with you because they are being choked by the clouds of smoke thrown up as you burn rubber in half-assed attempts to back-pedal and re-cast your points completely.

Given what I've seen here, I suspect that you're about 2 posts away from claiming that the lurkers agree with you via email.

Given that the mods have requested that we cool it, and given that I'd find it damn near impossible to continue without posts that would make Eric's Grandma cry, I'll stop here.